Venetian Theatre

Dear Mr. Rankin

My Uncle Charles Karabetsos owned the Theater from about 1960 to his retirement in the 80's, I worked at the theater from the early 60's while in High School and later through my college years at Marquette University.

While showing him My son's wireless laptop, I entered Venetian Theater Milwaukee, and he was quiet pleased (he's close to 90 now) to see the old building in its better years, the Marquee which had the large Venetian name was not on the Theater as I recall in the early 60's, there was a marquee that projected over the sidewalk, this is where you could list the coming and current attractions, it was removed in the late 70's or early 80's as I remember under a program that Milwaukee had for such hanging signs.

My uncle never operated a furniture company, the first business was a catalogue sales company (popular in the late 1950's and into the 60's. This was a general merchandise company, the interior was quiet difficult to work around, the slanting floors and high ceiling, in 1960 he put a suspended ceiling in the auditorium, this held up for about 10 years more or less as the roof always leaked.

He sold a variety of items, almost like a general store, during the Holiday season he had a very large toy department, this was prior to Toy's R Us. The decline in toy sales and the impact of competition always presented new challenges, he used the stage area for warehousing of Proctor And Gamble soap items for the Coin Op. laundry business, the upper area was rented for several years to a person who sold sewing machines and developed a brush stroke technique to show how the "masters" painted on canvas, he attempted suicide after a partner embellished money from the company, for 20 years time stood still with all his stuff, occasionally we would salvage something to use for a sign or a part. In the 70's we were able to obtain a liquor license, the seating area was left un-heated and used to warehouse large quantities of soda, beer and soap. The front or lobby became a neighborhood grocery and liquor store. My uncle sold the building and liquor business in either the late 80's or early 90's and since then I believe it has been closed entirely. In all the years that I worked there I don't think I ever took a picture.

What's quiet interesting is that I travel to Cuba under a Treasury license, in Cuba there are many old Movie theaters still operating, I will occasionally go to a movie, just to experience the grandeur of a 1000 set movie theater, the over-stuffed seats, no leg room rows.

Thanks for making this post possible.

Steve Faytis
Sanibel Florida

Please let me know if you learn anything more about this theatre. Thank You. Jim Rankin = jimor@lycos.com

I grew up a few blocks from the Venetian when 'Charlie' ran Venetian Sales there. I also remember Steve in his (and my) younger years. I'm glad to hear Charlie is still alive and I hope well.

I always wanted to walk around the rest of the building. I recall the concession stand was the display for watches and the lobby was the main sales point. A curved staircase went from the lobby to what I presume was the balcony, but at that point, it was blocked off.

There were many visual points of the old theather still around back then. There were several face and body 'sculptures' in the corner of the lobby. 4 Large, heavy doors were the entrance points to the lobby from the street. When it was Venetian Sales, only the most western ones were usable. Between them in what my have been an update, there was a wall of 1" square tiles.

The cash register area was in front of the other one. Steve, I recall your uncle having a mechanical register which was more adding machine than register.

We purchased many items from "Charlies", as we called Venetian Sales. My first camera and first watch for example. We used to by the daily paper there as well.

I too recall the marque that was there. The word Venetian was at the top and then the word "Sales" was added on the movable letter portion.

On the corner of 37th and center, in the building there was a printing shop which had a sign above it for "Sparkle Dog Shampoo". I would stop and watch the presses work on my way into 'Charlies' to buy the newspaper. I have to say it was a great influence in my life path to work in printing/ graphics.

I remember mowing my parents lawn and seeing Steve and Charlie standing at the roof corner of the buildling one day.

To this day, I want to go into the building and look around. I understand it is not in great shape, which is sad. The history will be lost when it is gone, as well as a part of my life. But, still, to touch and see what is there would be a great gift, as this building is part of my history.

A few weeks ago, I stood across the street from this building - inspired to go there after seeing the movie "The Majestic", thinking about The Venetain, and finding this site from a search for informaton on it - and was awed by the size, and how after all these years of neglect, The Venetian still stands and still looks good from the outside. The cross-hatch pattern on the fascade can still be seen. The colors in the corners are still there along with the 'urns' at each part of the corner decorations. Riots and time have not diminshed her beauty.

Even with the building not in use as a theather, it was still a vital part of the neighborhood and my life.

I am happy to see that the Venetian will live on at least in some form of history - if only electronic. I am sad that I will never be able to experience sitting in it seeing a movie, the light dim, the movie starts and the stars twinkle in the sky.. that must have been something to see...

Timothy R.
Brown Deer, Wisconsin.

This was very similar to the Venetian in Racine, WI, which was also built by an affiliate of Universal Chain Theaters Corporation (a subsidiary of Universal Pictures Company, Inc.).

Tim R. gives some fine memories for the once lovely VENETIAN, but just to clarify his mention of "several face and body sculptures" lest one think they were mannequins, it might be best to label them as what they are formally called: 'gaines,' the classical forms done in terra cotta or plaster of a human figure from the waist up, with a large scroll-shaped ornament called a 'console' forming the lower half, and this was mounted on a plinth with multiple moulds forming the profile. Most if not all of these were removed by local salvager of architectural items, Gregory Filardo, author of the 1988 book "Old Milwaukee: A Historic Tour In Picture Postcards," available via Inter-Library Loan through any public library. His vast collection in his 'castle' on Kilbourn Ave. is an education in itself!

Warren's comment is perhaps too generous to the VENETIAN in Racine, since that lesser design was done by the Universal Studios of Chicago, and not by the more talented Peacock & Frank of Milwaukee, which did, however, almost reproduce the VENETIAN in Milw. when they designed and built their PARAMOUNT in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. That theatre is long gone, sad to say.

Building Update... The roof on the west side has now deteriated to the point where you can see the beam work that makes up the structure. I noticed that several of the 'vases' at the corner of the building are also missing. Is it known if these were salvaged by Mr. Filardo?

Two more items that came to mind as I walked around the structure today (6/22/2004). In front of the house to the east of the building there was (at least in the 1970's) a small building which acted as a popcorn stand. It was open most weekends. At that time the Venetian was a store and not a theater. They would pack the popcorn in small white bags which were very greasy by the time you got them home. The area is still noticeble as the walls at the base still exist.

The other memory was that during the time it was a store, and perhaps sometime before that. The front area between the two front doors of the store was faced in Brown and tan tile. These were small tiles, perhaps 1" square. I suspect they were added as part of the convertion to a store.

The little "mighty Wurlitzer" from the Venetian was installed at Holy Family Roman Catholic Church, Bayfield, Wisconsin around 1954. The organ is currently dis-used and non-operating though mostly intact. Sadly, it doesn't look like the Venetian will survive to see its organ returned as has happened in a handful of other locations.

The organ is listed for sale as of this posting.

My Great Grandpa was Mystic Marlo--Crystal Gazer. He apparently preformed at the theater June 10-17 in the 1930's!

Are there any photos available of the Venetian Theatre? Also is there anyway that I may contact Steve Faytis for more information on the theatre and his uncle?

Keith S.

Sorry to say, but there are no 'good' photos of the VENETIAN known to exist, if one means 8x10 glossies, but there are three small, black and white images of the auditorium in the "Exhibitor's Herald" magazine of April 16, 1927. One could request this on microfilm via Inter-Library Loan at one's local library. They are in an article titled: "Elaborate New VENETIAN THEATRE; Wisconsin's First Atmospheric Theatre is Opened in Milwaukee." The article is two pages, but the photocopy that was sent to me does not show the page numbers.

A sketchy rendering of the proposed auditorium is in the "Milwaukee Journal (or possibly Sentinel") of Sunday, March 6, 1927, front page of the Real Estate section. It is available as the above magazine, which are photos, not drawings. There was the same rendering plus a photo of the exterior in the opening day ad in the March 18th issue, 1927, though they are small and poor resolution. I have only xeroxes of these which would not photocopy well, but if that would satisfy you, click on my name in blue below for my E-mail address and send me your mailing address for the photocopies to be sent.

A view of the 1940s marquee, as well as four views of the concession stand through the years are held by the Theatre Historical Society's Archive in Elmhurst, Ill 15 miles west of Chicago. They may well have obtained other views I am unaware of since I contacted them about this theater in 1980. Go to their web site: www.HistoricTheatres.org as to how to contact them and for directions to their Archive.

Milwaukee usually keeps the blueprints of buildings on microfilm, but in this case all that survives is the seating plan. It is available in a large printout via the Milw. Records Center, Municipal Bldg., 841 N. Broadway, Milwaukee, WI 53233; 414-286-3393. It is also possible that the Central Library's Local History Room (www.mpl.org) (414-286-3061) may have acquired something new, and in the same building is the Wis. Architectural Archive, 414-286-3897 which occasionally has something, and also the Milw. County Historical Society's library, Third St. at Kilbourn, Milwaukee WI 53233; 414-273-8288.
One might also inquire of the Urban Archives of the Meir Library, University of Wis.-Milw., 414-229-5402. Ask what they have and how best to get copies.
Best Wishes, Jim Rankin

AS to contacting Steve Faytis, he does list any contact information under his "Havana Cinemas" link at the bottom of his message, but the People Pages
http://directory.superpages.com/wp/results.jsp?SRC=&PS=15&PI=1&STYPE=WS&WF=Steve&WL=Faytis&T=&S=FL&search=Find

list him thus:

Stephen Faytis
1255I Sabal St
Sanibel, FL 33957
(239) 472 - 0225

Jim,

You have been really helpful. I went to Central Library and found the articles you talked about. I found the Real Estate article with just a sentence undernealth the picture in the Setinel. The advertisement for the grand opening was actually in the Journal both pictures were pretty ugly have printing them out. However, there was a book on Milwaukee theatres with two (2) descent pictures of the Venetian. The first on page 60 similar to the one posted here without the snow (Milwaukee I tell ya...) and another of the front with a young lady in the ticket both. I am checking the Georgetown University Library (Special Collections) for the Exhibitors Herald article. I have calls into Milwaukee Historical Society and plans to make it to their library this Saturday. I plan to visit the UWM collections soon and sent a letter to THSA requesting a report. I have also contacted the Wisconsin Architectural Archives. You have been really helpful.

Thank you Keith, glad I could be of help, but you don't tell us what your connection or interest in the VENETIAN is, and what you hope to do with the information. By the way, the EXHIBITORS HERALD article may very well be in volumes at THSA since it was their former editor, John "Andrew Corsini" Fowler, who sent it to me. Best Wishes. Jim

Nice to see some activity on this page.

I am wondering if there is anyway to get into the building, knowing that it may be of some hazard to do so. I would want to do this in a legal manner. Any suggestions given that ownership is unknown (I think) Gregory Filardo must have had a way to get in to retrieve the 'gaines,' I'll bring a hardhat.

Regards, Tim

Currently I am a student at Marquette. We are going through the development process as it relates commercial property. Well, growing up in Sherman Park all my life I have always had an interest in the magnificent history of this great neighborhood. My parents told me about the Egyptian (what a lost), the Oasis and many others however, the Venetian somehow has missed the history books. I drive past it everyday and decided to use it as a project in class. However, there is not much in the way of documentation on the Venetian. The Wisconsin Historical society has several pictures of the outside and a picture of the front box office which is documented in the book Historical Theatres of Milwaukee. The City Records only has the seating layout. The Central library only has the book. I am contacting Georgetown University for the article Jim mentioned with a few pictures in the Exhibitor's Herald. They are sending a copy of the article. I have also contacted the THSA and they will have a report on any other documentation out there. Peacock and Frank (the architects) have no documentation of there own however, on the University of Minnesota has a web site with a picture of the Venetian and others with work done from the American Terra Cotta Company. See below. I would love to see any pictures of the lobby and the actual theatre itself, before the 1980 renovation.

(http://snuffy.lib.umn.edu/image/srch/bin/Dispatcher)

Greg Filardo got the gaines out years ago. Now the legal status of the rapidly deteriorating place is open to question. Reportely, the place is in tax arrears, so the city could take posetion of the place, so just whom to contact is open to question, since the place obviously abandoned. Entering it without the legal owners' obvious assistance, leaves one opne to arrest and prosecution, even he does manage to enter and exit in that neighborhood without injury. Fred Hermes of Hermes Insurance in Racine supposedly led a flashlight tour in September, but you would have to ask him about that.

I received the article printed in the Exhibitor's Herald from Georgetown. The pictures in the article is the best I have seen of the inside of theatre. It was a great theatre. My next step is to somehow view the inside of the theatre in the upcoming months hopefully before the city decides to take possession of the property.

Jim,

In your expert opinion, do you think the Venetian is worth saving? Better yet, is there a theatre you would like to see saved, here in Milwaukee (other than the Avalon)?

Keith,

I am not an expert on theaters like Jim is, but I can tell you some experience things that, sadly, tell me that this building may be beyond salvage.

This photo:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/DSC01240.jpg

Is of the roof of the building on the south west corner. As you can see, it is wide open. When I looked at this building in May of 2004, there was some patching materials covering this spot. When I returned in June it was as you see it in the photo. This would be over the stage area.

When I was a kid and the building was in use as a retail store (Venetian Sales) there were a number of water leaks in the false ceiling that was built over the seating area. I doubt they were ever really repaired. In the mean time, this year alone we have had several inches of snow which I would imagine went right into the building.

I am not an expert in structures, but I would doubt that this can be saved, or is of value to save. Much of the detailed plaster items were painted over or destroyed during its' retail life. Who knows what is still around now.

Hello, Keith,

I hate to see any theatre torn down, and that includes the VENETIAN, even though I have never been inside it. You ask if it should be saved, and I must answer: For What Purpose? You are aware of the deteriorating neighborhood and the fact that even if cinema were very much desired thereabouts, would it be safe to go there, at least for White people? If safety were not an issue, then the matter becomes How to Program the Space? What does one put on the stage that is so good that people will travel on public transportation (there is no real parking nearby) for miles to fill its thousand plus seats often enough to support it? Even if one could find an 'angel' who would not mind sinking a million dollars into rehabilitation and operation, what would he do with it? Some people toss around vague statements such as it becoming a 'community center' as if wishful thinking will cause some charity to take it on and somehow be able to restore it to some level of service and still have funds left over to help the 'community.' That was tried by a group of African women who bought the long lost EGYPTIAN on a land lease, and went bankrupt trying to pay for the enormous costs of running a huge, deteriorating building. At the time of its demolition, there were 30 outstanding building inspection orders, and when the owner simply stopped paying taxes, it was seized and eventually demolished for public safety. Really, it appears to be the same situation for the VENETIAN. It is now dangerous structurally, and any visitor there would have to proceed with the utmost caution, for many reasons.

Is there another theatre that warrants 'saving'? Definitely, the prime one is the former WARNER, now called the GRAND downtown on Wis. Ave. at 2nd St. I was on a tour of it in November and it is being well heated and is primed for reuse, if a farsighted entrepreneur can be found. I am in touch with the owner of the land under the building, and he is anxious to see it reopen to some good use. Marcus Theatres has a lease till 2015, and is responsible to keep up the building to some extent till then, but after that, it is anyone's guess. Several local performing groups have looked over the theatre, but it is mostly too large for them, The Symphony caused Marcus to remove the dividing floor, so now one can see its seats in a still ornate and reclaimable auditorium, which the Symphony cannot now afford to buy and keep. It awaits the thousands of dollars it will take to reclaim it. Click on the word MILWAUKEE at the top and you will be taken to a list of our theatres, and there will be the WARNER/GRAND; click on it for more, or click on my name in blue below and you will be taken to my Profile page where you click on Contact Information and you will see how to approach me directly if you have ideas.

A quick building update. I'm not sure if this is really new news, but I drove past the building on Friday.

The roof over the lobby area is now gone and the strut work above the auditorium is now very visible.

Hello all,

I did some research and found the following.

The March 6th, 1927 Milwaukee Journal did indeed have a sketch of the interior. I was able to make a fair printout of it there, scan it, do some touch up and clean up. I have posted that here:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitianinteriorsketch.jpg

for your viewing pleasure.

I also found the ad for the Opening Gala of March 18th. However, it is a simple column ad and did not really having anything else to it. I was not able to get a clean print of it that might show anything of value. Sadly.

The library was unable to help me with a copy of Exhibitors Herald as listed above, finding no such publication. If anyone has something more about that, can you post it or perhaps we can do something via email?

I looked in "Old Milwaukee: A Historic Tour...." by Gregory Filardo, and did not find any postcard of The Venetion on any page.

I found a book by Robert K (Kirk) Headley titled, The Theaters of Milwaukee, which you can view at the Downtown Milwaukee Library in the Zeidler Room. It cannot be checked out. It had a photo of the exterior, as we see above. However, what theater fans may find interesting are views of and history on other buildings. Some of them are very stark, sad photos of the last moments of the building such as the interior of the Egyption and the decline and wrecking of the Princess. Mr. Headley wrote the book for the Milwaukee County Historical Society. It is out of print.

Lastly, a quick stop to the Milwaukee County Historical Society allowed me to view a photo, as mentioned of the marquee and front ticket book. There were no other photos or records on file there.

However, the Gentleman who helped me there said he understood that a book was currently being written by Larry Widen of the State Historical Society, and that there was some interest in the Venetian. But, one never knows about these rumors. I'll persue that and report anything here.

In the mean time, if anyone has anything else by way of photos etc. I really would love to see them. This building has meaning to me, and short of the risk of going in now... well... anyway.

Peace.

To Jim Rankin,

Can you explain your use of the term "grandiose" in the first line of the description for this theater? This very unfortunate choice of words has come up before with regard to Loews Paradise in the Bronx, et al., and you were justifiably critical of its use.

Is there some difference here that justifies the use of that word?

Tim, Send me your E-mail or regular mail addresses, and I will send you a photocopy of my photocopy of the three small interior PHOTOS (not renderings) of the interior as I listed them in Exhibitor's Herald, which has been defunct for some 50 years now. This may be the reason that the library could not find it for you, though the Union List of Serials should have shown that a number of libraries around the country do have it in volume if not also microfilm (libraries may lend microfilm, but will rarely lend bound volumes). I believe that the Archive of the Theatre Historical Soc. outside of Chicago also has a set of 1920s volumes of the Herald, but they will NOT lend them. Go there **by appointment** to see what they have in their vast archives. www.historictheatres.org

If you want someone to respond to you personally, you must list your Contact Information on your Profile Page which is accessed for anyone by clicking on their name in blue at the bottom of any post, and then clicking on CONTACT on the profile page when it appears. My E-mail address can be thus viewed too. If you prefer to correspond, then write me at: P.O. Box 14455, West Allis, WI 53214.

Stevebob: in using the term "grandiose" in the opening here I was trying to set the stage for the era in which such neighborhood movie palaces were constructed: often of smatterings of ornamentation and gilt to carry the idea of the theme they were recalling, but rarely with authenticity or proper scale. Whether or not a theatre was more pretentious than real in its actualization of theme is a matter in the eye of the beholder. The PARADISE in the Bronx was grandiose in the sense of being overwhelming, but not pretentious; it had authentically Venetian motifs. The VENETIAN, on the other hand, was more pretentious in trying to live up to its name, since the then-existing JUNEAU on Mitchell Street was actually more 'Venetian' than was the VENETIAN if you compare photos. The design of Peacock and Frank's VENETIAN was more just a conglomeration of vaguely Mediterranean motifs than anything peculiar to Venice. It was a charming, but hardly authentic pastiche, a common practice in those days, just as our AVALON had nothing Welsh or of Arthurian legend. Notice that there were no Venetian gondalas nor their mooring bollards, for example, as were depicted in the JUENEAU. In this sense, then, it was made to overwhelm the modest showhouses then in the neighborhood, as opposed to being authentically Venetian in theme. The name chosen could have been as easily 'Patio' or 'Garden' or the like since the decor was that non-specific; thus it was modestly "grandiose" or pretentious as opposed to being more modestly authentic.

Jim -- I totally get it, and you are certainly one of the most respectable and erudite contributors to this site.

Isn't it interesting how the "grand/grandiose" thing is actually fairly often applicable in the realm of movie palaces?

I'm thinking of a recent thread on the United Artists Los Angeles page, and how others mentioned the intentional use of illusion in the creation of shadows, and how the lobby ornamentation was really all just skillfully painted plaster.

Isn't that the wonderful thing about movie palaces? That there's some genuine gilt here and there, and some illusion. Some real "art quality" art, and then again some illusion.

Were all movie palaces a mixture of genuine objets d'art plus faux-precious ornamentation?

Into which category would Heinsbergen murals fall, then, for example? Even if they were individually commissioned for specific venues, their artistic value seems obvious.

By the way, I remember that the Heinsbergen firm was in business into the 1980s. When I left Los Angeles, their offices were on either Beverly or Melrose. Are they still in existence?

Amen Stevebob. You know, all that combination of faux and real seems, kinda, like, uh, THEATRICAL! And yes, it is wonderful. And yes Jim's contributions to this site are of exceptional quality. In fact, I'd say they were grand. Probably not grandiouse, because he is concise after all. But on a site devoted to grandiouse excess, (tell me another way to describe an Eberson atmospheric) quibbling over the shades of meaning are a lot less interesting than quibbling over the shades of faux marble.

Best wishes
WD

Yes, Will is right: we would all prefer to quibble over shades of marble (faux or real) rather than the words 'grand' or 'grandiose.' I only mentioned the words since one has two meanings, but both positive (grand = 'large' or 'sumptuous' and 'impressive'), whereas 'grandiose' can have a negative connotation that the speaker/writer may not have at all meant.

Yes, illusion was the name of the game! While a few of the larger palaces could afford real marble and some 24-carat gold leaf, most of the neighborhood houses had to content themselves with illusion, and that was not always a bad thing. When most theatres had what appeared to be wood paneling, it was really faux-painted plaster, since that was not only cheaper at the time, but fireproof too, and cities often insisted that no non-flameproof materials could be in the area of the audience or the lobbies.

AS to Mr. Henisbergen's murals, they would have been a real bragging point for any theatre, since many seemingly custom murals were actually stock designs from scenic studios, and not custom designed for a theatre, so if a mural was custom, it was a cause for bragging rights and sometimes a noteworthy footnote in history. AS far as I know, Tony Heinsbergen died a few years ago, so I do not know what became of his studio, though I have a hunch that the mavens at www.historictheatres.org would know if you contacted them.

A quick Google search revealed this, though it doesn't describe the demise of the Heinsbergen firm:

Lloyd Klein Plans Boutique, Shifts Focus to L.A.

By Alison A. Nieder
Executive Editor

Couture designer Lloyd Klein has been living a cross-continental life for the past six years, with his company’s design and production operations based in Paris and everything else in Los Angeles.

This fall, he will open his first boutique in Los Angeles.

[...]

The two-story store and atelier will be housed in a French Normandy–style historic building at 7415 Beverly Blvd. in Los Angeles. The building, designed in 1928 by A.T. Heinsbergen & Co., features a wildlife pond, a small “moat” and a gothic turret. The space originally housed the Heinsbergen architecture firm. Until recently, bridal and eveningwear label Cantu & Castillo operated its design studio in the building, which is still owned by the Heinsbergen family.

[...]

Having a difficult night sleeping what with my heart failure, so took the time to look up Tony Heinsbergen's obit in MARQUEE magazine of 2nd Qtr. 1981 as quoted from the now-defunct CONSOLE magazine:

"FAMOUS WEST COAST ARTIST, THEATRE DECORATOR DIES
One of the nation's most prolific theatre decorators during the age of the great film palaces, Anthony Heninsbergen, died at his Los Angeles home June 14th. ... His canvases in theatre decorating were the ceilings, domes and interiors of the most opulent structures from Mexico City to Alaska. ... Heinsbergen was proudest of his murals for the Vancouver B.C. ORPHEUM theatre dome which he painted in his studio in 1976, when the theatre became the home of the Vancouver symphony. The painting was done in 24 panels, taken to the theatre and applied like wallpaper.
In his long career, Heinsbergen decorated nearly 750 theatres in the western part of the United States. One of his outstanding jobs was the decorating of the Los Angeles Theatre on South Broadway in downtown Los Angeles...."

With thanks to Jim Rankin, I have posted 4 items for your viewing pleasure.

Page 1 of the Article from Exhibitors Herald.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/VenetianTheatrearticlepage1.jpg

Page 2 of the Article from Exhibitors Herald.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/VenetianTheatrearticlepage2.jpg

Two views of the Concession Stand,
Note the Gaine to the left on this one:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/VenetianTheatre-standtrimmed.jpg

Note the base of the staircase on this one:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/VenetianTheatre-stand2trimmed.jpg

In its later life as Venetian Sales, the Conession stand was used for Electronics and watches. The "Enjoy Pure Buttered Popcorn" was intact as were the mirrors and shelves on the back wall. This was where radios and so on where on display. The counters were used for Watches. Clocks were displayed in the popcorn area. I suspect, buy the way, that the term "Pure" on the popcorn was due to this being in the Dairy State and Wisconsins strict laws against Margarine and and tint of yellow in Margarine.

I do not intend to violate any copyright laws by this. I hope no one is offended. (The Publication stopped many years ago, I am told)

Should this help anyone come up with further details about the Theatre, I would love to read them.

Enjoy

One more photo of the Ventian.. This picture of the Marquee was taken in 1946.. (note the movie..

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038319/

This was by my recollection the Marquee that was in place on the building until the City of Milwaukee re worked Center Street, which I think was in 1981 or 1982. I can't be sure. Venetian Sales had use the movie display letters to add the word "Sales" under it and then had some of the items, "Toys", Watches" etc. as well.

Here is the photo link.

By the way. To keep my photo's organized, I have moved the interior sketch which appeared in the Milwaukee Journal to this location:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/venitianinteriorsketch.jpg

Does anyone have anything to add for information?

I became intrigued about the VENTIAN after reading Larry Widen’s book
“Milwaukee Movie Palaces” and decided to “risk” a trip down to Center Street. After turning onto Center from Sherman Boulevard I immediately saw that beautiful ominous building as I drove east on Center Street.

As mentioned in previous post, the roof is falling in, the front of the building is boarded up. I drove around the block “nervously” to see the rest of the structure. The building had been spray/graffiti painted. Old tires were piled up in back of exit doors. I was going to take pictures with my digital camera but became uncomfortable while being in the area.

I couldn’t help think how beautiful it must have been to walk into the Venetian when it was a theatre before it closed in the early 50’s. I felt happy just to see a time in history and saddened as I drove away knowing that this once beautiful atmospheric movie palace will soon fall victim the wreaking ball. Rest in peace.

I was a union projectionist in Milwaukee from 1979 to 1992. And to work the Venetian would have been a blast!

Dear PCino,

Yes, it is sad that the building has falled into such dis-repair and neglect and is now just waiting for a fate we know will not be happy.

I was also sad to see how the area has deteriated and I am told is one of the worst areas in town. I was there a few months ago to take photos for an essay I am working on about my old neighborhood, who lived where and what went on. The Venitian was very much a part of that, if only as a retail store, which is all I have ever known it to be, or now empty.

My only hope is that there are people in the area who are fighting the good fight for a quality neighborhood and working to bring meaningful businesses to the area. They are having some successes. But like everything else, progress is slow.

Where did you work?

Timothy R,

First, I’d like to respond to your Jan 14, 2005 post in regards to “entering the building in a legal manner, with hardhats)”. If you can find a way let me know. My bro-in-law is a Milwaukee cop so safe escorting services will not be a problem.

I started as a union projectionist in 1979 working full-time at the Uptown Theatre for about a year. After that, I worked as a "relief" projectionist for 8 months working at such theatres as the Villa, Oriental, Downer, Ruby Isle, Mayfair and the Times Cinema (when it was a Marcus Theatre). My friend Eric is now running the Times, since the early 90’s and operated the Avalon Theatre in the late 80’s.

I was then moved to a “permanent” theatre in Fox Point (Brown Port Theatre) where I worked as a full-time projectionist for almost 12 years. The theatre was purchased by United Artists in 1991 and “locked-out” the union guy (me) thus ending my career as a projectionist. Had some great times running the movies at the older houses.

PCino-- I know I would also like to get in there with a cop as escort if your invitation extends to me. There is, however, no Contact data for you on your Profile page; you can update that by clicking on Profile in the upper right corner. If you click on my name in blue below, you will be taken to my Profile page and my Contact info there.

Jim,
Email mission accomplished. Surely, my invitation goes out to anyone
who wants to participate in our upcoming event, “Let’s Walk Around in
the Venetian” tour. I’ll supply hot coffee, hard hats and the cop :)

Somebody please take a camera!

Video and still!

However, we fall to the same problem this idea has had in the past. I contacted Fred Hermes, listed above, who basicily laughted at me and said it would be a matter of breaking and entering, which would as well all know, not be legal. We would need to get permission of the owner. The city of Milwaukee website does not list the addres when looking for Property records.

If we get all that sorted out. I'm in!

Larry Widen, author of the 1986 book MILW. MOVIE PALACES, told me that he can't find the last owner of record whose tax bill address was bogus! So, I guess the city owns the place in reality, but probably awaits a court action to seize it. Of course, they don't want to do that since then they will be responsible for the many thousands for demolition --but which they will be responsible for eventually anyway. Often cities wait in "benign neglect" for some part of the building to collapse into public view as a hazard before they reluctantly pay for demolition (especially when no one is likely to buy the cleared land!) We can but wait, unless someone knows someone in city government, since Tim is right: even a cop doesn't have the right to enter private property without Warrent or Probable Cause.

Oops hit the 'Remove from Email Notification' link; this should correct that.

Hello All—I found the BEST picture of the Venetian’s concession
stand that Larry Widen had contributed to a book in 1993! So I emailed Larry tonight to verify the photograph, only because the book identified the picture as “Fox’s Venetian in Milwaukee” were I thought it was always owned by the Universal film chain when it was operating as a movie house.
He told me it was owned by numerous owners, which would make sense.
He also said it was okay to link the picture :)

I’m going to guess that the picture was taken from the late 30’s or in the 40’s because I don’t think there were “fixed” concession stands before the mid 1930’s??

Anyways, the photograph is breathtaking and the picture comes in two
flavors 800x600 or 1024x768. I will be hosting this photograph.

http://www.pcino.com/images/Venetian_Concession_800_600.gif

http://www.pcino.com/images/Venetian_Concession_1024_768.gif

Dear Mr. Rankin:
I was the first to post information on December 26, 2003. Well, it has been a pleasure reading about the Venetian, although sadly to learn of it fate. A quick note on My uncle "Charlie" well he's over 90 now and just had a pacemaker put in. As I mentioned I started working part-time at the Venetian in 1959 or 1960, I was 12 at the time. Exploring the building back then was thrilling to say the least, especially for a 12 year old. I'll describe several of the areas that took real courage to venture into.
The boiler room, this was one terrifying place, a series of fire doors had to be opened to gain access, the stairs were metal and lighting was a premium, so I always took a flashlight. Under the stairs in the boiler room was what I think was a terra cotta fountain, this was taken apart and moved there before my exploration. The electrical panels were on the left side of the walkway to the boilers, this would have been the back wall of the theater basement along the alley. Turn right and the monstrous boilers with their wide mouths were waiting. Across from the boilers, under the sidewalk (37th Street)were huge rooms for coal, these however we not in use as a small gas boiler was already
in place. As I recall and only ventured into this area a few times was a tunnel that was accessible by climbing a ladder in the boiler room, this tunnel went around the seating area in a big U shape, I don't remember any thing of interest or value in the concrete tunnel, no old candy wrappers or what today would be great memorabilia. Under the stage area accessible via the Orchestra pit as we called it, were a series of small rooms, probably dressing rooms, several ornate tables that probably sat in the lobby, some old telephone books from the 1950's and normal abandon trash.
The stage of the theater had a room, one level up, that housed an air conditioner on the west side, and on the east side accessible by a staircase was several other rooms, during the 60's we stored boxes from merchandise that was on display. That way we could retrieve the box to repackage the item if it was the last one.
The balcony, no longer had any seats, on each side (West side and East side) were what might have been ornate turrets, this I know is not a proper description, the projectionist booth, only a few trampled frames of film, a couple of empty film reel holders, nothing of any value or interest.
What I do remember as having some hidden treasure was the up-lighting, this was a strip of lights, different color bulbs that were mounted on the north wall about 5-6' high, concealed from view so as to only give a soft indirect light. Probably a great place to through your old gum, cigarette and candy wrappers, I remember finding a raffle ticket dating from the 20's or 30's for a chance to win a car, it must have been a special event of some sort. The mezzanine, bathrooms and offices that occupied the second level were initially un-used, the bathroom fixtures were either gone, broken, and definitely not working, a few ornate bronze signs (EXIT) were the only items that could be easily removed, and by the 1970's were no longer there. I can still remember the ornate hand rail, it was curved, with wood on top and iron spindles, hopefully it lives on in someone's home. The ceiling of the theater had small holes with lights above, the ceiling was actually a false ceiling with plenty of walking space above it, the lights I am told looked like stars in the night.
Good luckk on your tour.
Steve

Dear Mr. Faytis, Thank You for your fine comment. I'm sure everyone here agrees that memories such as yours help bring alive our theatres history -- especially when a theatre is almost lost to us. I hope someone finds that disassambled fountain you saw under those stairs and preserves it before the sad day of demolition inevitably comes. Jim Rankin

The whole thing with the Venetian is saving the last of the atmospheric's and I mean last because there is NO activity going
on with the Avalon either! I was talking with a friend the other night and he said to me, 'Why don't you buy the dang building' from the city (when it becomes available). The city would be happy.. Patch the roof and let it mellow some more as you form a co-op of some sort. I wanted to chuckle at his presentation but I'm keeping
a very close eye on the Venetian situation.

I very strongly wonder if this was actually an Eberson design. The exterior is quite clearly a knockoff of Eberson's atmospheric Aragon Ballroom in Chicago, which, of course, was attributed not to Eberson but to local architects Huszagh & Hill with Eberson associated. Could this be the case here?

In re-reading the notes above, I come across something of an in-consistancy. In Jim's opening description he mentions stadium seating and the possibility of moving between orchestra and balcony without going back to the lobby.

In TimR's link

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/VenetianTheatrearticlepage1.jpg

the side view of the auditorium looks very much like a standard orchestra/balcony arrangement.

Jim's research is always meticulous. If he says stadium, I believe stadium. But it also leads me to wonder if there was a more complex plan than is visible in the somewhat cropped side view.

Also, what happened to the auditorium and balcony during the years as a furniture store?

Last question: what is behind the windows visible above - and to the sides of - the marquee? Did they open into the main lobby? Mezzanine space? Offices?

The Venetian may not be long for this world: your memories of this building, recorded on this site, may soon be the only record of this once lovely facility.

Thoughts?

Hi Will,

As I recall in the days of Venetian Sales (a variety store, not furniture) there was a drop cieling which was at the level of the bottom of the balcony and stayed at that level until it reached the stage area. They were white cieling panels with floresent fixtures. A speaker sat on the edge of the stage area playing music from some radio station, I think WEZW, the easy listening station. I'm guessing that it might have been a speaker used for showing movies. I really can't say. As a kid, having been told the stories that I was by the adults in the neighborhood about the theater and the experience of watching a movie there, I wanted to get above the drop cieling and look around.

The lobby, which was at the time used as part of the store where Charlie sold candy, small elecronics such as radios etc from the former Consession stand and the daily paper. Later he added some minor groceries and beer.

Given that, I doubt the windows went into the lobby. I have heard that at one time there was a remodeling of the lobby and that may have changed the reasons for the windows.

I do not recall seeing stairs in the auditorium. Perhaps someone who has seen the actual floor plan for it can explain.

In regard to the above comments:
Brian Wolf: I don't know where you got the impression that this was an Eberson design; all evidence indicates that it was a job of Peacock and Frank. Very likely the were inspired by Eberson's works, but nothing indicates that the great one was in any involved personaly here in Milwaukee.

Will Dunklin: You here catch me in error, something I work hard to avoid. Your keen eye caught the obvious truth, which I just now confirmed with the only extant drawing I know of concerning the VENETIAN, its seating plan. This does show that it was indeed a standard single balcony plan with 2 staircases in the lobby, and NOT stadium plan as I stated above. I have not been in there since 1956 at the latest, when I was ten years old, so memory was fading, and it is possible that I somehow confused it with the FOX BAY or the RIVIERA, both original stadium plans, which I was also writing about at the time. I apologize for the error. Unfortunately, I cannot answer Will's other questions because the plans for the building were not preserved and placed on city microfilm as were many others. I did locate Urban Peacock's widow and she told me that when her husband died, she told the building super where his offices were located to burn all his drawings and records, which apparently the super did. She kept no memorabilia of his work and was obviously irritated with my phoning to inquire. Since the Wisconsin Architectural Archive did not exist then, there was no place to receive their drawings and we are the poorer for it.

I only recall one set of stairs which lead upstairs. They were just off the consession stand, which was being used for watch and small radio sales. You can see a bit of them here:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/VenetianTheatre-stand2trimmed.jpg

Oddly enough, they had been left untouched in the conversion to the store except for a door which was mounted at the top of them.

I suggest the possibility of Eberson because the facade is an amazingly blatant knockoff of the Aragon. I know that at the Aragon, contemporary news articles, and even more recent ones have mistakenly attributed the design to Huszagh & Hill, who were always named as the architects, sometimes mentioning "with John Eberson associated." My suggestion is that perhaps this was an Eberson design, maybe with some financial restraints causing a reuse of facade treatment, and attributed to architects Peacock & Frank just as the Aragon is attributed to Huszagh & Hill. This is all purely conjecture, and I am very likely wrong - I have know idea how deeply researched the theater is - but I think more research might be warranted, since the Eberson name could go a long way to saving the building.

I don't know if this helps or confuses the issue in question about the architect of the Venetian. Here are several photos I have taken of the building to show some details of it. These were taken last year when I started working on my essay about the old neighborhood.

Anyway, here are the links.

Detail of the corner top sections:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/DSC00156.jpg

Detail of one front section. Note that this is repeated at the other end of the front half, and on the street corner facing west. There are no other details on the west wall. The east wall faces a two story residence which at one time had a pop-corn shop infront of it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/DSC00157.jpg

North West Corner of the building looking up
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/DSC01246.jpg

Heat and Air Conditioning plant area. Note what I belive are exit doors that empty to the ally. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/DSC01242.jpg

And, sadly, the roof
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/DSC01240.jpg

When I first looked at the building two years ago, someone had attached blue tarp across this portion of the roof. When I returned a few months later it was gone and this was the view.

What this means is that the interior of the building has been subjected to rain, snow and all sorts of weather. I had read in an article from 2003 about the Venetian that there was a 'hole in the roof the size of a swimming pool' and that it had been like that for a few years. Sadly, I think this means that there would be little to salvage of what once was. Still, I'd love to get inside and find out....

Short of finding some autographic document with the architect's signature mentioning his involvement with the VENETIAN, the only evidence we have is secondary and therefore by others. The highest caliber of secondary documents are legal ones, and the best of those are deeds and similar, kept at the Register of Deeds' office in the Milwaukee County courthouse downtown at Tenth St. between Wells and State streets. Anyone wanting to settle the matter will have to wade through the records there for the architects' name(s), a long and tedious matter for one who is not a trained title searcher! On top of this is the fact that the architect(s) names may not be anywhere mentioned, since deeds deal mostly with land and not improvements.

The next best legal source are the Building Permits on microfiche in a building behind the Municipal Building next to City Hall on Water St. at Kilbourn Ave., about 13 blocks east of the Court House. Note that the microform archived permits have been maintained by a group of young Black women for decades now, and they have misfiled so many records, that the archive is sometimes worthless! If you can find the original permits on film plus any ammendments to them, they may only list the "architect of record" and not necessarily Mr. Eberson IF he was in any way involved. Many times a famous architect was paid for 'Concept Sketches' by the architect of record, but often it was done quietly, both because the local boys wanted credit, and because the famous one did not want his name attached to the work of others in case they did NOT succeed in 'covering themselves with glory' on the job in question.

If anyone wants to come here and find the difinitive record and photograph it so as to post it somewhere on-line, more power to you! My health is too poor to be of local assistance in the matter, but I am happy to give you moral support.

Larry Widen will be releasing his new book about Milw. theatres in September to be called "Silver Screens" and he will list Peacock and Frank in regard to the VENETIAN; if you learn otherwise difinitively before then, I'm sure he would love to see proof before then. He can be reached via his web site: www.widenonline.com

I was in the Venetian Theatre back in 1984 and looked at the second floor balcony area to rent for storage. The rood was already leaking then. The interior was fairly complete, missing only the seats. As far as the lobby statues, there were 5 which the owner sold to a local architectural salvage dealer. To dispell inferences--these were available for purchase to any Milwaukeean--however everyone was too cheap to pay the price!! A dealer in Denver purchased 4 and I worked at finding enoough money to purchse the remaining one--which was pictured in the book--if I had not sacrificed the money and purchased it, no picture would be there and noone could see what it looked like! Now, what are we doing about saving this "gem" of a theatre? We all agree it should be saved. Sadly our society has millions of dollars for nothing but nothing for something! Well, start by throwing out the TV, turn off the overpriced sports figures who wack at useless objects and put all that energy into saving a great treasure! I worked dilligently for 28 years giving of my life to save a Historic Landmark in a terrible area(which is coming back)and never recireved one dollar of help!!! Is our legacy going to be weed infested parking lots and expressways that noone will be able to afford to drive upon? Gregory Filardo

Holy Toledo.

That is extremely advanced roof damage. Except for the exterior, it does not look like there is much to save at this point Gregory.

Does anyone have access to some air transport such as a helicopter or small plane that someone might take a look at it from up there. Short of climbing up on the building, it might suit to get a view. If someone did... take photos!

It is my sad duty to report that the city has ordered the demolition of the Venetian, as listed on the city's web site at: http://tinyurl.com/yyornk I don't know how long that information will remain there, nor how long one of these "tiny URLs" will last, but if you want to see the city's microfiched permits and other such records of it, I suggest you go to the Building Permits archive next to city hall soon, since they sometimes destroy all records of a demolished building as a space saving measure.

A local man is trying to get a small group together to go inside the boarded-up building before the wreckers arrive (date of that unknown), so if you want to chance the crumbling roof, the unpredictable neighbors, and the police, send me an E-mail at the address listed on my profile page here (click on my name in blue below) and mention Venetian in your subject line, and I will send you his E-mail address by which you can make private arrangements. My health will not permit me to go, but I send my Best Wishes to all concerned. I suggest you read above Comments first. Good-Bye Venetian!

Hi Jim, Is this local man forming a legit or unauthorized entrance.
Well anyways, I'll go for the gusto. Put me on the list. I'm very saddened to hear the news, but it was inevitable. Very depressing to say the least. Goodbye Venetian!

Hello everyone.

Well as I sit here I am very saddened by the news of the demise of the Venetian Theater Building. Like some of you, this building was a part of my life and I will be sad to see to see it go.

I took a drive around the building to take some recordings of the current state and see if I could find any sign of it's current status, such as abestos removal taking place or the like. I'm sure there is some in there and they will have to abate that before the can tear it down.

When I was a youth and it housed the Venetian Sales Operation, there were a number of water marks on the drop ceiling that had been put in the auditorium area, and that was well over 30 years ago.

I shot some video tape of the building today and it is posted here.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/?action=view¤t=venetiandamage.flv

The roof is mostly gone, and I suspect that all there would not be much of the interior left after our lovely Wisconsin rain and snow have had at it. It is in worse shape than it was just 6 months ago and far more than 2 years ago when I begin my project about the surrounding area of the theater.

I'm not sure what there would be worth saving after all this neglect. (There is only one way to find out!)

Hello again gentle readers,

I spent a good portion of this morning in the Milwaukee City Assessors Office and a bit of time at the Print and Record Services Office at City Hall in Milwaukee. I found everyone I encountered to be very helpful, especally when I explained the reason for my quest.

I have sitting next to me on my desk about 40 pages of documents about the building that were on file. These were the orignal paper documents which I was able to photocopy. Included in this paperwork are specifications about the building when it was put up for sale at the end of its initial life as a movie theater, including dimensions, material descriptions (4 bubblers), Wisconsin Chair Company Chairs, dimensions for them, multiple dimension drawings with measurements, curtian size and stage size, boiler information and the list goes on. I am in the process of scanning these pages and will post links to them once I have this done.

There was also a 4 page flyer created by Arthur J. Straus company, a mortgage bond company offering a bond issue on the building (Theater and Store building). The building was appraised at that time by a gentleman named Albert C. Reichard, who was a 'well known northwest side realtor(sic), whose offices are on Center Street... certified to by Peacock and Frank, architects and engineers for the building."

I also have printed copies of two of the three original drawings submitted to the City of Milwuakee of the building. The remaining one was showing ductwork for the heating/ventilation and was not in very good shape. These were printed from Microfilm on file at City Hall.

First off, it was very exciting to get a hold of this record. I was holding peices of paper that went back to the 1930's and the assessment of the building by the city at that time. The flyer was a bonus, and there was a photo taken in 1968 of the exterior of the building, configured for Venetian Sales.

Stay tuned, I'll post links when I have this all assembled.

Tim

Scanning went faster than I expected....

Details of an inspection... from the paperwork that was attached to it, I think it is from the point when the theater closed in November of 1952 and attempts were made to sell it as a theater. Included are details about the projection booth and stage/screen area.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/ven1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/ven2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/ven3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/ven5.jpg

Photo of exterior. Circa 1968.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/ven6.jpg

Thanks Tim for the excellent information!! You put alot of time and effort into it :)
Paul

I agree with Paul, Tim; you have filled a number of gaps in our knowledge. I don't know how you got those city people to find the original documents, since they had told ne that ALL paper was converted to microfiche and then the paper was said to be destroyed. I guess it depends upon whom you talk to.

It was nice reading on the 2nd page you linked to that there was apparently a fountain in the balcony promenade (corridor) as a display fountain and not a drinkiung fountain, since they separately list "bubblers" (Milwaukeese for Drinking Fountsin.) Something tells me that the fountain is long gone! Those drawings were also unavailable to me, since City Records said that there was only a seating plan on their microfilm. Your dilligent efforts are ironically bringing to life what will soon be only a ghostly memory.

Jim: at the risk of appearing cynical I'd say the Venitian has been nothing but a memory for quite some time.

"Life's too short" is right, of course. But up to now, one could at least drive by and admire the polychrome terra cotta panels of the cornice and coping, if nothing else of the boarded-up, dark brown brick facade. Yes, the Venetian is but a memory --and not even my own, since I grew up in Greenfield on the far south side after 1956-- but I feel cheated at its loss, since I do not remember it operating as one of the major movie palaces in my own home town! Thank goodness Tim R. posts those three little vintage photos I supplied him, in his Dec. 2005 links above. They aren't much to create a memory with, but they are all the originals we have.

A correction, if I may. The larger plans that I had printed from Record Services at the Milwaukee City Hall are of the seating plan and not the building elevation. Perhaps I should have had her print the other plan they had on file of the heating system.

I spoke yesterday afternoon with a gentleman who had drawn the theater floor plan in 1990 as part of a planned renovation, which placed leveled the floor in the auditorium up to point where the balcony curve met the side walls, this would be used for storage or the stock liquor. He told me that his recollection was that the concession stand was gone at that point, but the stage was still intact.

His opinion based on what he saw then and from the damage I described to him is that there is likely little left of the interior and that if the metal beams on the roof have been exposed to snow and rain and sun, as they have they would be weakened and could pose a dangerous situation. He was also somewhat amused at the difficulty that tearing down this building poses. It was built heavy and fireproof due to problems with theater fires elsewhere and Milwaukee codes. The foundation is about 10 feet of solid concrete and the walls are not only the brick facade we see, but other structural elements that will pose a challenge to those to try to take it down. Also, the three-foot distance to the residence to the east of the building.

Ah yes, Tim is so right about the expensive and dicey job the demolition of a movie palace is! A friend is an engineer and was utterly amazed at the heavy steel work I showed him inside the balcony of our Riverside theatre. He remarked that such today only occurs on larger bridges! This is why, of course, thr the city has sat on this decaying hulk for so long: they didn't want to pay for demolition and possible 'brown fields' cleanup costs. Yes, it will be risky for the residence next door, and they would be wise to demand that the city put them up at a hotel during razing.

One has but to read the story of the man who owned the wrecking company contracted to take down the Chicago PARADISE in 1956 to see how expensive it is. He went bankrupt doing it long after the specified fee was exhaused, and then committed suicide. Most contractors will now do these only on a cost plus basis -- ironic, because that is the basis they were often built upon.

I stopped in at a local bookstore and took a look at the new Larry Widen Book, Silver Screens. While he does give some great information on the many theaters that were in the Milwaukee area, don't go to it with expectations of learning more about the Venetian than you see here. There is one photo of the exterior and it was taken shortly before the building was shut down and several other references to it, but mostly in passing. Just some thoughts for your Holiday Shopping.

As an Addendum to my above commentary. The book "Silver Screens" by Larry Widen is a treasure trove of information about the history of Movie Theaters in the Milwaukee and near surrounding area. I was given a copy of it as a Christmas gift and have been enjoying it grealy. If you are looking for information on an assortment of theaters, with some great photos, I'd recommend it.

For the Venetian, might the darkest hour be preceding a new dawn?

To excerpt what Paul Bachowski of MUSIC LLC, Milwaukee Urban Skyline Investment Company, states in a February 1, 2007, posting on the Web site of Milwaukee Renaissance:

-o0o-

Project Save the Venetian Theatre Launched!
A report by Paul Bachowski, Feb. 1, 2007

Operation Save the Venetian Theatre is underway! Ron Roberts of the [City of Milwaukee] Department of Neighborhood Services has stated that he will hold off on the demolition of the theater if I am able to provide them with a financially supported renovation plan. The building’s impressive brick and terracotta facade, brick walls, steel roof structure and concrete floors are all in great shape. . . . The long road to seeking grants for the restoration of the theater has begun.

At least $200,000 will need to be raised in the next couple months to acquire, stabilize and clean out the building. The replacement of the roof, facade cleanup and lobby area restoration would be the first phase. A non-profit entity will be formed that will oversee the renovation of the building interior and manage fund raising efforts. . . . With the $200,000 funding in place this year you will see a new facade on the first floor of the building and can stop in daily to watch the renovation of the theater taking shape behind secured windows.

Please help me get the word out as this window of opportunity may not last long. Grant support and partners with money and skills will be crucial.

The redevelopment of the Venetian Theatre will be a major catalyst to the redevelopment of the area. . . .

Sincerely,
Paul Bachowski

MUSIC LLC

Milwaukee Urban Skyline Investment Company

office/fax: 414–374–8775

mobile: 414–517–1277

-o0o-

Congratulations, thanks, and *best of luck*, Mr. Bachowski!

You can read Bachowski's full statement at the following Web address (copy and paste it into your browser window if it turns out not to be a working link):

As much as I love movie palaces, especially those of my hometown of Milwaukee, I, like most theater lovers in our area, had long ago despaired of any chance of saving the Venetian. This has been not only due to the theater's long lack of use and poor condition but, as other posters to this board have stated, there seemed to be little chance of support for such a building in a neighborhood that has long been in decline. I've always hoped that I'd be wrong about this when it comes to the Venetian, and I hope that Bachowski and his colleagues indeed succeed!

http://www.milwaukeerenaissance.com/VenetianTheaterProject/HomePage

Not only would the restoration--or, better yet, the resurrection--of the Venetian be a great outcome in itself for it, its city and neighborhood, and all of the people of its neighborhood and the Milwaukee area. Like the current efforts to bring back Milwaukee's Avalon (like the Venetian, one of a total of five atmospheric theaters built in Milwaukee), bringing the Venetian back from the brink would be a refreshing change from all the losses of other fine Milwaukee theaters we've seen over the last few decades.

Of all Milwaukee movie palaces, the theater whose story has seemed most parallel to the Venetian's so far might be the Egyptian. Jim Rankin, who chronicled so many Milwaukee theaters on this Web site and elsewhere, would, I'm sure, be elated, as this writer and many others are at this latest news. The rebirth of the Venetian would be a great tribute to him and his efforts. (For those of you who don't know, Jim, sadly, passed away in January.) Let's hope we have a different ending--a happy one--for *this* Milwaukee movie palace!

My thanks to my friend Mike McC. for alerting me to this news and sending me the link. I'm sure there will be much more--I'll do all I can to keep you posted and invite my fellow Milwaukee-area movie-palace aficionados to do the same!

Scott Enk

senk8105@sbcglobal.net

This theater does have great potential. Its renovation/restoration will foster revitalization of the existing town. I am particularly fond of the glazed terra cotta work on the facade. Please keep us informed. Bless you all!

Thanks for all your input, friends. But don't thank me--I've just spread the word. Thank Paul Bachowski and his partners for their "heavy lifting" through their efforts to renovate the Venetian.

Although I certainly do not speak on behalf of Mr. Bachowski or his organization, he told me earlier today (Monday, February 5) that his deadline for firming up first-stage funding is this Thursday, February 8. Time thus is indeed of the essence--so if anyone "out there," whether from Milwaukee *or elsewhere*, knows of any potential sources of grants and/or other possible funding for this project, *now* is the time to contact him and let him know. To get contact information for him, please see my posting above.

Scott Enk

senk8105@sbcglobal.net

Hi all, what has been happening in regards to the Venetian since the deadline of Feb. 5th?? Funding, grants??

Hello everyone,

It is with a heavy heart that I write this. As I do so, the Venetian Theater Building is being razed. A crew arrived 4 days ago and as of this afternoon, most of the west wall including the terra cotta corner, most of the east wall and a larger percent of the roof are torn down. The roof was pulled down away from the stage. This afternoon Milwaukee police had Center street blocked off to all traffic while the east wall was removed as there was concern that the front wall may colapse into the street.

I will post photos and a link to them as soon as I am able. Two other people are providing me with photos of the progress and I have there permission to display them. These will show the progress of this final event for the building as well as show details that were perhaps of come curosity for those have read this page for any amount of time.

Some items to note. The projection booth was intact, with the details around it including handrails for the balcony. The balcony was present as was the stage with the colored details around it and above it as well. It is very easy to see the bases of the ledges that were over the stage. One person who has been watching the razing continually over the last 4 days reported to me that upon opening the west wall where work started, none of the interior was visible or intact. It was a crumbled mess as he described it, except for the items I have mentioned above.

An attempt to retrive the terra cotta by an interested party was met with no response by the contruction crew chief. I was able to secure two bricks from the east wall that I will treasure. There are markings on one of the bricks which should permit me to determine the company that made them.

The lady is not going in that dark night with out putting up a good fight! The duplex to the east of the building, which was about 4 feet away from the brick wall has recieved damage from when the east wall was taken down. There is a large gaping hole in the roof perhaps about 10 foot long and consuming most of the roof height. One officer told me that a few bricks came crashing into the residential area of the home.

I will post any further updates and will also post links to the photos once I have them sorted out.

Regards,

Tim

Hi Tim!

I am from NY, but my heart goes out to you and all the residents who favored &/or fought for this gem. Shame on the developers and all other parties who didn't think it was a big deal. I detest selfish people. I believe in a divine presence, and this behavior will not go unrecorded. Don't let them get away with this without putting up a fight. Thank you for documenting it. Please continue to keep us posted. Power to the people!!!

Here are some photos taken of the razing of the Venetian.

The Projection booth and balcony:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/projectionbooth.jpg (Very cool photo in that I've never seen this part of the building.. would love to have been up there even for a minute!)

Re-enforcement of the East Wall:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/P4050059.jpg

West Wall and Stage area:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/P4050053.jpg

Detail shot of the front fake balcony door:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/DSC02564copy.jpg

Roof and partial wall:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/P4050049.jpg (taken yesterday)

West Wall and full building:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/DSC02560copy.jpg

Detail of a second story front window. These have been boarded over for many years:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/DSC02559copy.jpg

East Wall corner:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/DSC02554copy.jpg

Roof Details and tear down of East wall:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/DSC02547copy.jpg

Stage area: Marked view of details over the stage. The orignal painted walls are visible. Did not see this while in person, noticed only on the photo. It was a remarkable find.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/DSC02546details.jpg

Stage area portions over the stage:
The stage is actually smaller than I expected it would be. This is a wider shot than the one above. You can see how some of the plaster details for the fake Venice balcony areas are over the stage opening.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/DSC02546copy-1.jpg

Sadly,

Tim

Thanks for posting! The heart of the community has been torn out, and I'm wondering... Which bureaucrats are ultimately responsible for this destruction? The contractors are also responsible, since they didn't have to choose that job in the first place. It is as if one enters a museum and turns the place upside down, whether legal or illegal. Art is an extension of the soul. Please try to salvage additional remnants. Thank you for your work, Tim!!!

Sad news, but most of us who knew and cared about the Venetian and its fate saw what's now happened as all but inevitable--including many who deeply hoped that the efforts of Milwaukee urban-renewal advocate Paul Bachowski and his colleagues to renovate the Venetian (and, ultimately, help its decline-ridden neighborhood) would succeed. We had all been awaiting some news on this front, and had hoped it would be good. The news has now come, but it's not good.

Thanks, Timothy R., for sharing all those powerful photos eith us all. If I can get there some time this weekend or soon afterward, I'll be trying to get some good pictures myself--and, if possible, share the best ones with you and everyone here.

The pictures might not be quite as dramatic as the famous one of Gloria Swanson amid the ruins of New York's Roxy or Milwaukee movie-palace maven Larry Widen's haunting photos of the interior of Milwaukee's Egyptian shortly before its razing, but they're nonetheless powerful, especially that closeup of the northwest exterior corner with its brickwork grotesquely twisting. As many of us had long feared and as Mr. Bachowski confirmed to me--and as the pictures and accounts above show--there indeed wasn't much of the original theater left inside, but what little did remain (get a load of that remnant of wonderful, riotous color on and near the remains of the proscenium!) is still a reminder of the theater's better days.

A less spectacular photo among the many I've taken of the Venetian myself might also summarize all too well what's been happening to the Venetian for many years that has led to this week's demolition. Taken in 2004, this photo shows a rear stage entrance that apparently had been the target of someone trying to kick it in at the bottom--and was guarded only by weeds and an empty bottle of Wild Irish Rose wine. This is all too symbolic of what's happened to a once-festive, happy theater, its neighborhood, and, in many ways, many areas of its city.

"And so, my friends, we'll say 'Good night,'
for time has claimed his prize . . ."
--Styx, _A.D. 1958_

Scott, thanks for your comments. As of this morning there is really nothing to see except for the back wall and stage area as well as the shell of the lobby. All other areas have been razed and cleared. The site is not accessable and police are watching closely, given the damage to the nearby house this is not a suprise.

Yes, the interior was a pool of plaster, we can enjoy what little can be seen and appreciate the workmanship of that bygone era.

According to the information I have, the style F Wurlitzer (2 manuals 8 ranks)from the Venetian Theatre has been sold from the Catholic church where it was installed for many years. The organ is supposedly in the home of the residence of Lou Knudson in Apple Valley, MN.

If you have any further information about the restoration of the organ, or the new owners, please forward it to me so I may add it to the history of this theater. My email address is on my profile.

Thanks

Tim.

What a loss. The theater may not have been salvageable but the facade can and should have been saved for future development.

The graceful arches should have been taken off and preserved at the least. They appear to be pristine.

Hi Folks,

Some more photos of the Venetian.

Photo of a Shield from building exterior on the ground.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/shield.jpg

A Shield that stopped at the base of a Tree on the sidewalk
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/shieldbytree.jpg

Tuesday 4/10/2007 - shell of building
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/shellofbuilding.jpg

Rope sign - Circa 1946 - or at least the paper was.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/ropessign-circa1946.jpg

How I know the age.....It was on the back of a movie poster for a Red Skelton Movie "The Show Off" If it was a first run movie shown at the Venetian, then, that's the age.. or close, right?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/ropessign-circa1946-back.jpg

Sadly, it has taken the distruction of this building for us to see the great detail that went into building it. For example,

Proscenuim detail - looking up from center of the stage
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/prosceniumdetail1.jpg

proscenium detail - side and top
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/prosceniumdetail5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/prosceniumdetail4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/prosceniumdetail3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/prosceniumdetail2.jpg

After all these years, the paint is still there on some of the parts. I suspect that the white painted areas were the result of the drop ceiling and over painting of the garden interior for Venetian Sales.

This detail is above the Proscenium, stage left. You can see three important items here. The great structure to simulate a porch over the stage. the sky painting complete with a cloud that remained and some of the lighting in the auditorium. I'm guessing this is the lighting that helped to dim the night sky at the beginning of a show and simulate a sunset/sunrise as part of that.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/prosceniumdetail6-sky.jpg

This is the same type of lighting fixture as shown in the photo above. This was on the west side of the building. Can anyone confirm this? The flex conduit is confusing as the date this would have been installed. Is this original 1927 type lighting and conduit
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/lampcloseup.jpg

One of the corner piller sections on the ground
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/pillaronground.jpg

A column piece
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/columnendpiece.jpg

Sorry folks, I could not get a better photo of the movie screen, still hanging with curtains. Video comming soon.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/moviescreen.jpg

Hand written note of what to do in case of fire - stage right toward front.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/incaseoffire.jpg

A capitol piece from front left side of building
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/capitolpartwithnumbering.jpg

Capitol piece closer - note the numbering on the side. Several pieces that could be seen had this exact same type of marking
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/capitolpartwithnumberingdetail.jpg

A Film reel, I'm guessing it's pre-1955 era.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/filmreel.jpg

Here is something that was pointed out to me by someone. Look at the two photos:
section of the East wall
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/rightshieldsection.jpg

See something odd about them?

Left side shield section
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/leftshieldsection.jpg

I've been looking at this building since the late 1960 and never saw it.

Lastly, the durability of this building was evident by the difficulity that the crew had in trying to raze it. I count at least 3 layers of bricks in this photo of the east well where it meets up with the stage front wall.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/wallsection.jpg

Tim

Sad photos - but fascinating nonetheless.

Thank you so much for documenting this loss, and for sharing those images with us.

Bob

Nice photos, looked like someone climbed on the wreckage! I would have done the same, and I have for some demolished buildings.

I sure hope you grabbed those sheilds and capitol to save. They are heavy I'm sure, but could be cut down and look great cast in a new building.

Thank you, Tim, for those photos. What a wonderful neighborhood theatre this must have been. It was a shock to read about its destruction, since the last news I'd heard was that it was going to be restored. What happened?

By the way, the top member of a column is called a "capital", not a "capitol". Speaking of which, did you get to save any of them?

Thanks again for the photos.

Thanks Ziggy.. know I know that term correctly (wish I could go back and correct that.. oh well.. So much for that career as a writer!)

As for capitals being saved, I know for certain of two. I have one of them.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/capital.jpg

Though it is chippped, considering the fall it took to the street below, it's still a cool piece. The back of it has a very cool item, which to me just adds to the wonder of this building and what I have of it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/capitalbackwithfingerprints.jpg

You can see the finger marks of a worker who spread morter material on the back as well as where they stopped moving. A little piece of history frozen in time.

There is a great deal of detail on this part. The colors are very brilliant, which I think is amazing given the age of it.

I have a few other pieces such as this portion of the arch that was over the wrought iron balconys on the front and west side.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/archpiece.jpg

Note the numbering on this piece
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/archpiecenumberingcopy.jpg

I also have this proscenium detail piece which was the underside of the porch.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/prosceniumdetail7-undersidepiece.jpg

This is for me an example of the details that were in the building. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/columnendpiece.jpg

It is a fragment end piece of a column and you can see the slight ridge detail on the depression. This was not something I ever saw from the ground, but close up it can be seen. Also, I was impressed with the faux marble treatment on this as is the arch piece. I imagine this might have faded a bit, but still an amazing detail.

They truly don't build them like that any more.

OK, two more photos..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/screenfromrear.jpg

The movie screen as it hangs yet today.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/Screenfromfront.jpg

The curtains that were on the sides of the framwork are still there after all these years. From the ground it appears to be a 1.33:1 format.

Larry Widen in his book (written with Judi Anderson) Silver Screens - A Pictorial History of Milwaukee Movie Theaters Writes "During World War II, the theaters importance as a news source became frighteningly evident when, in 1941 Japan bombed the Navel base at Pear Harbor, The Avalon and Venetian Theaters interrupted their showings of Here Comes Mr. Jordan to announce the disaster. ..."

Perhaps they were watching it on this screen? Perhaps someone knows.

Tim--

Thanks again for those sad but fascinating photographs. For many of us, they will be our only chance to see what was left of the Venetian's interior--and whatever tangible will soon be left of the Venetian itself.

Yes, I, too--as SNWEB indeed has asked above--should have asked, when it was still possible, about whether if it ultimately proved not possible to rehabilitate or otherwise save the Venetian, its priceless terra-cotta trim could have been preserved as a unit or at least in larger units, perhaps to be mounted on another building elsewhere, or whether smaller pieces could have gone to museums--perhaps to the Milwaukee County Historical Society and/or the Milwaukee Public Museum, or that of the Theater Historical Society of America in Elmhurst, Illinois. I hope that those of you who have been able to obtain remnants might at least consider thus donating a piece or two so that future generations can glimpse what we have all too often lost in *many* cases and places--and be inspired to do all they can to preserve the few vintage theaters we still have.

For those of you who might be interested (and have the money--they *aren't* inexpensive to buy), some choice remnants of the Venetian are now for sale by Urban Remains, a Chicago architectural-artifacts firm. You can see photos of these remnants via the following link:

http://www.urbanremainschicago.com/item.aspx?itemID=763

Be sure also to click on the "Theater Building Artifacts" link at the bottom left of the above Web page.

I am still considering going to the Venetian myself some time soon and retrieving whatever I still might be able to.

Tim and all, how can one best do this *safely and lawfully*? (The demolition photos clearly indicate entry into the site.) Is there someone at the site or elsewhere from whom one must first ask permission to enter?

Two safety concerns that might well apply here to anyone attempting to retrieve theater artifactn *in addition to* demolition-site-safety and legal matters relate to two materials commonly found in older theaters: asbestos (in those fire curtains and in building insulation) and lead (in paints). What can any of you tell us all as how to best avoid such hazards, much less bringing them with us?

Scott Enk

One of the Urban Remnants photos--the one of one of those urns that was *at the very top of the building*--shows just how much work and care went into the Venetian and so many other movie palaces. How many today would be concerned about, much less include, *garlands* on those urns, a detail that few if any people would see at such a height?

As with the films for which these theaters were built, "they just don't make them like that any more."

Hi Scott,

Those are some beautiful items that were found there. I saw others who were retrieving items last week, could be that was some of it.

I was told that prior to the start of razing, the company doing the work was asked for permission to go on site and remove the full amount of terra cotta from the building exterior but the company did not respond.

As for safe and legal going on site, I'm afraid I'm not able to answer that. But I can tell you that about all that is left of the building is the stage wall (I'm sure there is a term for it) and parts of the stage. The reminder of the material has been piled together by the crew over the former lobby area in what looks like they are preparing to start dumping it in trucks. I'd say there is nothing left to get from it.

I believe that some pieces are on display at Historic The Times Cinema.. at least that's what I heard.

This urban salvage company is running a very bad & shady business.

The item featured here: http://www.urbanremainschicago.com/item.aspx?itemID=83 is from a theater in Gary Indiana (The Palace) and no approval was given to have them mine the building for all she's worth.

Save your money and stay away from this place.

after reviewing this blog, we had no choice but to comment on the wonderfully gifted detroit "decay" photographer who posted incredibly inaccurate and/or unfounded information...please, step forward and reveal yourself...and what made you arrive at your conclusion that our company is "bad and shady". please feel free to contact us at 312-523-4660 for further discussion regarding senseless defamation of character. clearly, your comments reflect upon the type of person you are...and frankly, we find it saddening. do you find us attacking your "photography" on your website? think about it...

urban remains staff

As William Manchester wrote when chronicling the 1950s in his bestselling popular history of the United States from 1932 through 1972, _The Glory and the Dream_:

"Across America five thousand motion picture theater marquees had been darkened in the great box office recession which had accompanied the rise of television. Ernie Kovacs and _Queen for a Day_ had stolen hearts once pledged to Clark Gable and Ginger Rogers. . . . Beneath screens on which Paul Muni had defended Alfred Dreyfus and Gary Cooper had submitted to torture rather than divulge the cavalry's location, empty whiskey bottles accumulated, and where Charles Boyer had begged Hedy Lamarr to run away from the Casbah with him, and Jennifer Jones as Bernadette had been visited by the Virgin Mary, aisles became cluttered with cigarette butts, sanitary napkins, and used contraceptives."

As with so many other wonderful theaters, no doubt similar, if not exactly the same, things happened in and to the Venetian. While some Milwaukee theaters have found interesting alternative lives (for example, the nearby Zenith--with the Avalon, which is now being restored, Milwaukee's last two surviving atmospherics--is now a church, although one with, fortunately, most of its theater decor still intact; the unconventional but interesting Koscuiszko is now a bicycle store, while the Lincoln, just down the street from the Kosciuszko, is now a sad hulk, albeit one with its quaint nickelodeon exterior still intact), the Venetian has finally ended its last sad run. It now joins such still-revered Milwaukee wonder palaces as the Wisconsin, the Palace, the Alhambra, the Plaza (the favorite "show house" of my mother, who died 31 years ago today but whose keen memories of growing up from the 1930s to the 1950s played a major part in whetting her son's keen interest in things historical!), the Colonial, and the other two of Milwaukee's five atmospherics, the National and the Egyptian.

All that now remains of the Venetian is its imposing rear wall and its stage area, with its riotously colorful, richly detailed stage opening (still including a beautifully detailed molding--or perhaps a carving--of fruit on one side of the large niche over the center of the opening, formally called the proscenium; please see the photos to which I link below) patterned after the world-famous Rialto Bridge in the real Venice--and still surrounded by a few shattered remnants of what was once part of the atmospheric ceiling. Before this tragic altar, like a great sacrificial offering, lies a giant pile of rubble and twisted metal that once was most of the rest of the theater.

The Venetian, like so many theaters that have literally gone before it and like it, deserved better.

Its sturdy doors, once at least once closely watched by vigilant ushers against any young gate-crashers, showed signs of having been forced open--and were guarded only by weeds, old newspapers, and, at least once, an empty bottle of Wild Irish Rose wine (see linked photo).

As Timothy has noted in a previous posting, despite efforts to reinforce the side wall (the east wall) adjoining a residence only a few feet away, some bricks from the theater crashed through the roof pf the house. A blue tarp now covers a hole in the roof estimated to extend 10 to 15 feet down its height.

Fortunately, no one was hurt, although, as Terry, the young man who lives with his family in the first-floor apartment, bricks from the theater crashed through the attic of the house into its second-story apartment. As he showed me on April 14, all the first-floor windows (and, he said, at least some of those on the second floor) on the side of the house facing the theater were broken.

He invited me inside, turning off a booming boom box in the living room and pulling away the plastic covering some of the broken windows in his bedrooms and bathroom to reveal a neighbor's-eye view of the carnage in concrete, brick, and twisted metal, flecked occasionally with what seemed to be crumbled plaster--some still a vivid sky blue--mixed in. (To those of you who've also paid your respects--is that indeed what that blue in the rubble at least sometimes was?) Another window was boarded up.

Terry, born long after so many movie palaces had died, asked me for details as to what sort of building, one apparently unfamiliar to him, had been next to his home. I told him about how large movie theaters like the Venetian had once been common in neighborhoods and downtowns all over America--before television, before suburbia, before the hollowing out of our cities and so many of their neighborhoods. "For a lot of theater owners, these places just couldn't get the audiences they needed to heat and maintain them," I explained, adding that that was how places like the Venetian ended up as the likes of liquor stores.

After I showed Terry and his young siblings where to find this page of Cinema Treasures, he and I went out on his front porch, where he showed me how the razing had also dislodged a metal-pipe stairway railing and the corner of a rain gutter at the foont of the house.

"Danger--No Trespassing," read a sign on the temporary high fence erected around the gravesite. Silently acknowledging my debt to Orson Welles and his film _Citizen Kane_, I again pulled out my digital camera, set it to movie mode, and photographed the sign, pulling back to reveal the fence and the large yellow wrecker behind it, then panning left to reveal the giant pile of rubble and the looming rear wall, topped with a tall chimney and a graffiti-covered stage-pulley (or is it an elevator-mechanism?) housing.

As to whether or not the foreboding opening or the closing theme, with its overpowering, tragic finality, of Bernard Herrmann's legendary score to _Kane_ was more appropriate, assuming either was to this newly filmed sequence, I wasn't sure. But, as in those opening and closing sequences of Kane, even though I didn't go past that fence, my camera's eye did--and recorded something tragic yet fascinating.

One passerby, curious why I was taking so many pictures from every angle around the fence--even at times sticking my telescoping lens between the chain links--asked if I was an insurance agent. Another, Shelby Holloman, noted that he thought it was sad that such a building had come to such an end, noting that if it could have been saved, it would have been a great asset to the community. Unlike Terry, he and I are both old enough to remember the movie-palace era firsthand, if only in its last, waning days.

Noting that he himself had done demolition work, Holloman said that some were concerned about how to make sure that the complex, towering rear-wall-and-stage area (at the south end of the theater) could be brought down without damaging the house right across the narrow alley behind the theater. The massive pile and wasteland of debris where the rest of the theater had been, he said, would probably have to be cleared away first.

Even though the site seemed to have been mostly picked clean of such mementos as the weathered but still exquisite terra-cotta work that can now be seen up close on the Internet, I did find a large remnant of one exterior half column, its swirled, beautifully marbleized terra-cotta still sporting two rich, deep red bands flanking one of gold, just inside the fence nearest the street corner (see linked photo; note that this piece, like many other of the theater's terra-cotta pieces, is numbered; might someone be able to access and, if legally and otherwise possible, exhibit online a copy of the relevant American Terra Cotta Co. catalogue pages showing the pieces that graced the Venetian? Urban Remains friends, might you either be able to do this or know of someone else who can?).

The terra-cotta piece, so masterfully executed, was, like so much else in movie palaces and movies, just a veneer; the rest appeared to be of solid concrete. (Urban Remains and Timothy, is this indeed so?) The piece was far too large and too heavy for any one person to carry safely.

The Venetian, as Timothy has noted, in at least some places had three layers of large, thick bricks forming its exterior walls. In the case of Chicago's lavish, fabled Paradise Theatre--celebrated and mourned widely, including by the rock group Styx in its homage to childhood memories of the theater through its 1981 album Paradise Theater and its trilogy of songs _A.D. 1928_, _Rockin' the Paradise_, and _A.D. 1958_--the sculptors and other artisans who worked on its were reportedly told, was intended "for all time." But, as is well known among movie-palace mavens, Paradise was all too soon lost; that theater was open only 28 years when, according to at least one account, theater owner John Balaban said, tersely, "Rip it down." The theater's walls and foundations were indeed built to last much longer; a demolition job originally expected to take about six months actually took some two years.

The Venetian, while much smaller and less lavish than such theaters as the Paradise, spent only 27 of its 80 years as a theater--spending most of its existence otherwise.

As Holloman said, awe as well as a tinge of sadness in his voice, "This is a monument, man."

As movie-palace history pioneer Ben Hall noted in his landmark 1961 book _The Best Remaining Seats_, a sign in one atmospheric theater reminded operators to be sure to turn off the twinkling stars and the machine projecting moving clouds onto the ceiling before closing up for the night.

Whether the Venetian ever had such a sign, I don't know. But its night sky is tonight all too real, and dark clouds cover the stars. What's left of the fanciful Venetian courtyard that formed it is about to vanish forever.

I did get to take hundreds of photos yesterday--sad, yet beautiful and powerful. You can see them at the following link:

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/senk8105@sbcglobal.net/album/576460762397988905

To see any one photo in detail, click on the muted thumbnail in the main body of the page. The selected photo will appear, together with a brief explanation I've written for each photo at the very top of the page.

Let me know what you think!

Scott Enk

senk8105@sbcglobal.net

-o0o-

It is so interesting for me to see, once again, how my lifelong interest in silent films, movie palaces, and related subjects has once again gotten me to expand my online capabilities. I first got online in 1998 after I began,, out of curiosity, to explore the Internet on a library computer. When I saw what it had to offer regarding silent film--something I've loved since I was five years old (and that's now more than 40 years ago, folks!), I knew that the Internet indeed had "arrived." After I saw Paul Charlesworth's Web site devoted to Lillian Gish (who's at the center of a far, far happier Milwaukee movie-palace memory for many Milwaukee-area folks, me certainly included--but that's another story for another time and Cinema Treasures page!), with a series of unanswered questions he had about Gish for which he requested answers from anyone who knew them and I realized I could answer all but one off the top of my head, I just *knew* it was time for me to get online and get my own e-mail address. So I did, soon followed by my own computer.

Now, for the first time, I've learned how to upload photos to a Web link! Talk about the new aiding the old; like many others, I strongly believe the Internet is one of the best things that has ever happened for silent films, movie palaces, theater organs, and related matters *and* for the people who love them and want to preserve them and share them with others!

The Net has certainly helped those interested in these various things, interests long often pursued in isolation from their natural kindreds (for example, some silent-movie people often seemed to care only about the films but little about the theaters or the organs designed to showcase them!), learn from and work with each other. Those interests--and everyone concerned--thus *all* benefit. Now if only we had had the Internet to help save the likes of the Paradise, New York's Roxy, Milwaukee's Egyptian--and so many others . . .

Just a quick note to urbanremains, even though this is not the place is discuss such matters.

I can only go on the facts here, that the above plaster was from the Palace, which is not set to come down at all, and thus has never been in the position where it was allowed to be legally salvaged.

This mentality of getting from a reputable dealer is a bad excuse. I remember in Detroit that the Lee Plaza Hotel had beautiful terra-cotta lions illegally stolen out, sold to a architectural salvage company, and many were later put on a new condo project in Chicago. The owner was shocked to find out that they were pillaged.

Your comopany shouldinvestigate things before allowing yourselfs to sell the plaster and later attacking me by leaving harmful comments on this website and on my own. All I can do is provide the facts. If you want to continue this matter, email me before trying to out me as a bad character.

Mea maxima culpa! First, my apologies for the repetitive posting from a couple of days ago--my computer had a bad case of electronic hiccups when I tried to amend my posting virtually at the moment I sent it. The most recent version of it is the one to follow.

The pertinent paragraph of my previous posting should be, and hereby is, corrected to read as follows:

-o0o-

I did get to take hundreds of photos yesterday--sad, yet beautiful and powerful. You can see some of the best--and most telling and informative--at the following link:

-o0o-

The link itself is correct.

I am sooooooo amazed at how the Venetian, at least based on what I've seen, has had more photos of and about it submitted to Cinema Treasures--or any other Web site not devoted to a single theater--than any other theater. This is truly a tribute, not only to the Venetian and to the cause of theater preservation, but to sooooooo many dedicated Milwaukee-area movie-palace mavens, from the late, great Jim Rankin to the equally incomparable Larry Widen and Judi Anderson to the dedicated Timothy R. and so many other great folks.

As for my own photographs, the overall views I've taken of what I call the "tragic altar" (the Venetian's stage and rear wall) and its "great sacrificial offering . . . a giant pile of rubble and twisted metal that once was most of the rest of the theater" might be the closest I'll ever get as a photographer to Larry Widen's haunting final photos (1984) of the ravaged interior of Milwaukee's Egyptian, the famed pictures of Gloria Swanson amid the ruins of New York's Roxy, or the famous "Irreplaceable" poster photo of the razing of San Francisco's Fox, but my purpose in taking and sharing such photos is to help hasten the day when we will *never again* have occasion to take or share such pictures.

Better for us all to share examples of *theater preservation*, as well as film and theater-organ preservation, in action as daily realities in *everyone's* lives!

Scott Enk

senk8105@sbcglobal.net

"Only the people who lived through an era, who are the real
participants in the drama as it occurs, know the truth. The people of each generation, it seems to me, are the most accurate historians of their time."
--Lillian Gish, in her autobiography _The Movies, Mr. Griffith, and Me_ (1969)

One last correction to my original April 15, 2007, posting to this page: The pertinent paragraph therein should be, and hereby is, corrected to read as follows:

-o0o-

Fortunately, no one was hurt, although, as Terry, the young man who lives with his family in the first-floor apartment, noted to me, bricks from the theater crashed through the attic of the house into its second-story apartment. As he showed me on April 14, all the first-floor windows (and, he said, at least some of those on the second floor) on the side of the house facing the theater were broken.

-o0o-

Hey, my training *did* include journalism--so while I might be a fairly good writer and researcher, I'm not perfect; I *do* place a very high value, however, on acknowledging and correcting mistakes or ambiguities when they *do* occur. 'Night, everyone.

Scott Enk

senk8105@sbcglobal.net

hello scott...and others--
i'm so very sorry that people like "snweb" exist to infuse their self righteous, self absorbed accusary opinions regarding issues that steer away from the focal point; that of course being the presentation of information regarding the acknowledgement and respect for structures of the past. that being said, i'll address you question... my name is eric and i own urban remains. in addition to our artifact collection, we have a large collection of orig. catalogs, etc. from terra cotta companies based in the chicago area. the amercian terra cotta co., along w/ northwestern, produced some of the greatest terra cotta ornament for commissions involving louis sullivan, etc. the "master" sculptor at the time was a man named kristian schneider, who created almost all of louis sullivan's ornament. cont...




dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddo not

want to

whoops, sorry about the grammatical errors here...i write carelessly sometimes... and i meant to say "accusatory" regarding the above...so much for my graduate school training... scott, i recommend you check out the book entitled "commnon clay." the book includes facimiles of the company's newsletter (provides great insight into the sculptors involved in making the actual molds used to create the terra cotta), along w/ detailed information regarding the manufacturing prcoess itself. to answer your question directly scott, you will not find the terra cotta used on the venetian in any catalog. although some companies had "common stock" (i.e., used time and again), for the most part, projects such as the venetian were treated as a unique case by case situation. hence, the importance of rescuing the fragments -- any and all! to make matters worse, the orig.








plaster molds used in making the terra cotta are likely lost or have k

okay, i need to take blogging 101... so, the molds are most likely gone...discarded. if any of the venetian was to be recreated, one would have to make a mold off the existing pieces recovered from the demolition. ...and we recognize the importance of this...prior to making the items for the public to enjoy (and yes, there is a price ((we are a business) we photographically document, draw to scale and create a "rough" mold of existing pieces...of course, this tedious process only applies to incredibly unique items like the venetian fragments for example. if anything, this information makes a great supplement for the historic american building survey via the national park service.

scott-- regarding your other question... terra cotta is essentially, baked clay. indeed, the application of the ornament can be looked at as a veneer of sorts. a few other things though for scott and tim. i'll begin by demystifying the markings and/or finger grooves found on the back. the markings seen along the sides (and painted in black) and/or found imprinted in the clay itself are simply "instructions" so-to-speak... the markings allow the masonry workers on site to place the pieces in the correct configuration along the facade. the finger markings on the backside are actually made during the process of preparing the clay for the kiln. the cavities behind the pieces are "gouged" out in order to allow for the mortar, brick and anchors to be set in place during installation. those three components -- tie rods, brick and mortar are essential to anchor the pieces into the facade.

...and for an exact reference scott, the authors of the book "common clay" are george a. berry and sharon s. darling. a cautionary note: the book is hands down expensive, but well worth it in terms of the wealth of information it provides. if you or anyone else for that matter have additional questions and/or would like to see some of our orig. catalogs, or even want copied snipets of information most applicable to your research, please feel free to call and/or email... 312-523-4660 or staff@urbanremainschicago.com if and when calling, ask any of our staff for the owner. i'll be more than happy to share any and all information i have regarding the historic building materials used in making these grand theatres you all appreciate so dearly. thank you, eric

I'm sorry to see we have reduced parts of this page to name calling and the like. Glad we are back on track.

Urbanremains.. thank you for the education on terra cotta and the markings. That information really makes the piece mean even more to me. I'm thinking about the workers who had cast it and then those who read those markings and knew how to place it on the building as a result of that. All of this work was done, of course in the pre-computer age, when drawings were done with a pencil, ruler and T-square using a slide rule for calculations.

As of this morning, the former Venetian site is as follows,

A large heap of brick and rubble pushed to the center of the site. Nothing of the lobby or the like remains in place.

The stage wall and parts of the stage remain standing, all large metal has been removed.

One person I spoke to, who seemed to have a better idea on how a demo like this is done than I would know, told me that they could be putting this heap down as a cushion for when the pull the stage wall down. Sadly, that move will mark the very end of the Venetian Theater.

Tim
I do appreciate all your photo's and have shared them with Charlie, also thanks for the letter you sent to me a year ago, Charlie remembers you well and at 91 is as sharp as ever.
I wish I was still in the Milwaukee area, I surely would have salvaged a few mementoes. I remember well the Red door that had painted (Cut Rope in case of fire) and I also remember the heavy fabric curtains. In one of the photo's from the book, pictured is an ornate table in the lobby area, the table up to about 20 years ago was still in the dressing room area, under the stage. The condition was poor, but probably wasn't getting any worse.
Scott: Although we have never met, I do appreciate you commentary. It provides a future, to a soon, to be a grass corner on 37th Street.
In my posting of Dec 26, 2003 I mention that I travel to Cuba. This is still the case, I have started the development of a web site www.ILoveHavana.com In Cuba there are still many theaters that have not changed for the past 50 years, they are still used as a movie house, although most if not all are in need of much repair.
Several years ago The Cuban Government paid honor to Steven Spielberg and for 1 week showed in the theaters of Havana his films. My travels coincided with this event.
For a creative writer and photographer I think 2 weeks in Cuba would provide an opportunity to investigate and catalogue many of the fine old theater buildings.
If anyone has an interest in making a documentary in Cuba, please let me know.
Time is running.
Looking back I wish I had paid more attention to saving at least on Film the interior, even as early as 1960 the interior while not in pristine condition was pretty much intact. I still remember the curved stair rail that allowed access to the balcony from both sides of the lobby. I can be contacted directly so as not to clutter this wonderful site.
Steve

Please end the plaster discussion, guys. It's off-topic.

A special note to urbanremains: legal threats have no place on Cinema Treasures. If you threaten one of our users again, you will be banned.

patrick--
as stated earlier, that issue is dead... at this point, i'm simply addressing questions regarding building materials. ...and no legal threats have been made. thank you pat, eric

For those who were wondering

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/04152007venetian.jpg

Photo taken of the site today...

One of my fellow 'watchers' on the site took a photo of when the where opening the front of the building. Sadly enough, it had an incredable view of the upper lobby with many details.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/thepmpguy/venitian/upperlobbygutted.jpg

Timothy R.--

Thanks for all those spectacular photos you've shared with us all. (Could you please contact me outside this site at my personal e-mail address if ever you decide to part with any of the pieces of the Venetian you were able to save?)

Milwaukeean Timothy St. Thomas, writing on the Milwaukee Renaissance site's page on the failed efforts to rehabilitate the Venetian (http://www.milwaukeerenaissance.com/VenetianTheaterProject/HomePage), noted, as you did and your photos document, that the ceiling had fallen to the floor in areas not covered by the remnants of the roof and that he was planning to put a photo showing this on that Web site. The photo that you shared here showing the projection booth and the balcony is apparently now also on Mr. St. Thomas's page at the Milwaukee Renaissance site, at http://www.milwaukeerenaissance.com/TimStThomas/HomePage)

Interestingly, however, Mr. St. Thomas also writes of having been able to fulfill a dream he had since childhood when he "had a moment of being in the building shell and standing on the stage."

I hope that he, you, or someone else was able to take some photographs of whatever was left of the Venetian inside other than the well-documented proscenium and surrounding area and the rear of the auditorium. Even with the side walls and the areas on either side of the stage opening (including the remains of the organ chambers) painted over and no doubt ruined by years of water and other damage, it would be interesting to see what they ultimately looked like. (While Paul Bachowski informed me that he had intended to have the theater auditorium rebuilt in a modern, functional style, with the costs of any attempt to restore it to its original appearance prohibitive, I had wondered to myself about the possibility of at least considering trompe l'oeil painting to recapture at least the aura of the original decor.)

I thus hope that you, one of your fellow "watchers," Mr. St. Thomas, or someone else were able to take pictures of these areas, too, and might be able to share them with us all--if not on this Web page or one at the Milwaukee Renaissance Web site, somewhere online.

Seeing as much of the proscenium as we've now been able to was a fascinating find--might there be any chance we might yet see more?

Scott Enk

senk8105@sbcglobal.net

If anyone has information about this theater in any of it's business forms, please write me. My email address is on my profile, found under my name below.

Thank You!

A correction.. It seems that my email address does not appear in the profile section. If you have any information about this theater, please write me at venetianmilw@sbcglobal.net

Thank You!

As I wrote in this thread nearly a year ago to Timothy St. Thomas:

-o0o-

I thus hope that you, one of your fellow "watchers," Mr. St. Thomas, or someone else were able to take [more] pictures of [the Venetian] . . . and might be able to share them with us all--if not on this Web page or one at the Milwaukee Renaissance Web site, somewhere online.

Seeing as much of the proscenium as we've now been able to was a fascinating find--might there be any chance we might yet see more?

-o0o-

Now there is more.

I thus hope that you, one of your fellow "watchers," Mr. St. Thomas, or someone else were able to take pictures of these areas, too, and might be able to share them with us all--if not on this Web page or one at the Milwaukee Renaissance Web site, somewhere online.

Seeing as much of the proscenium as we've now been able to was a fascinating find--might there be any chance we might yet see more?

I thus hope that you, one of your fellow "watchers," Mr. St. Thomas, or someone else were able to take pictures of these areas, too, and might be able to share them with us all--if not on this Web page or one at the Milwaukee Renaissance Web site, somewhere online.

Seeing as much of the proscenium as we've now been able to was a fascinating find--might there be any chance we might yet see more?

-o0o-

Now there is more.

"Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone?
They paved paradise and put up a parking lot. . . ."
--Joni Mitchell, Big Yellow Taxi

Nearly a year after Milwaukee's long-neglected Venetian Theatre, its rotting roof open for years to Wisconsin snows and rains, was torn down, I recently took another look at local urban preservation advocate Tim St. Thomas's excellent Web page on the history of this building whose death seemed to draw it more attention than it ever got over the decades since it closed as a theater, back around 1954.

Mr. St. Thomas has added some fascinating new material, including some pointing out how certain elements of the Venetian were similar to those of Chicago's landmark Aragon Ballroom, designed by world-famous "atmospheric" theater architect John Eberson, the leading exponent of that once-popular style of theater, which gave patrons the illusion that they were seated in an open courtyard under the night sky.

Mr. St. Thomas wonders openly if Eberson at least had a hand in designing the Venetian, the first of five such theaters to be built in Milwaukee (only one, the Avalon, still exists; after being closed for several years, it's now being renovated for performing-arts use). While I myself still strongly believe it indeed was designed by the local architects of record, Urban Peacock and Armin Frank, one indeed does at least wonder how much they might have been influenced by Eberson's work.

For many years, many of us in the Milwaukee area interested in historic buildings and their preservation, most of whom had long ago given up on any hope of saving the Venetian, wondered what, if anything, was left of the interior. Mr. St. Thomas now includes on his Web site two 2006 photographs from the city of Milwaukee's historic-preservation department that go a long way toward answering that question--two of the most memorable photographs of their kind I've ever seen, tragic yet hauntingly beautiful.

They hit me with much the same force as did such famous images as those of the "dean" of Milwaukee movie-palace historians, Larry Widen, of the ruins of Milwaukee's Egyptian Theatre, Bruce Sharp's pictures of Chicago's incredible Granada Theatre, both in its fading glory and in its heartbreaking ruin shortly before its razing (see http://www.mekong.net/random/theatres.htm), or the famous photos of Gloria Swanson amid the ruins of New York City's fabled Roxy Theatre.

If you haven't yet seen Mr. St. Thomas's pages on the Venetian lately, or at all, and want to experience one of the best chronicles of the life, mixed times, and all-too-common prolonged decline and death of a classic neighborhood movie palace ever written, take a look at this link:

http://www.milwaukeerenaissance.com/TimStThomas/HomePage

Thanks, Tim!

I don't know if the city of Milwaukee has any more photos of the Venetian that haven't yet been shared online, but I've been trying to find out!

Scott Enk

senk8105@sbcglobal.net

A correction is in order--mea maxima culpa!

The pertinent paragraph is hereby amended to read as follows:

Mr. St. Thomas wonders openly if Eberson at least had a hand in designing the Venetian, the first of five such theaters to be built in Milwaukee (only two, the Avalon and the Zenith, still exist; after being closed for several years, the Avalon is now being restored for performing-arts use; the Zenith has long been a church). While I myself still strongly believe it indeed was designed by the local architects of record, Urban Peacock and Armin Frank, one indeed does at least wonder how much they might have been influenced by Eberson's work.eater, back around 1954.

That 2006 photo is surprising. There was a lot more left of the auditorium than I would have guessed after seeing those holes in the roof.

It's always fascinating to wonder about the "what ifs". In this case, "what if Eberson actually did the design for the Venetian?". The evidence presented for the case is very flimsy though.

Mr. St. Thomas has a wonderful web page about Milwaukee architecture, but the explanation as to why the Venetian Theatre so closely resembles the Aragon Ballroom (an Eberson design) is probably that the architects were familiar with the Aragon, and liked what they saw. Architecture magazines of the 1920's were full of photos showing all the latest designs of prominent architects, and the Aragon most likely got quite a bit of coverage. It was common for other architects to be inspired by what they saw in these publications, and sometimes to copy them fairly closely.

As far as the terra cotta details being similar between the buildings, none of the motifs on either of the buildings are extraordinary or unique (by the standards of the times), and terra cotta was almost a mass produced product in the 20's. It's very easy to think that there were dozens or possibly hundreds of buildings with similar decorations at the time.

. I remember in Detroit that the Lee Plaza Hotel had beautiful terra-cotta lions illegally stolen out, sold to a architectural salvage company,
=
Happens, most were found, likely still sitting in a police lock-up while the building continues to rot and eventually gets torn down, then the police might just discard them if they haven't already. Should have secured the building better and this never would have happened

As far as the terra cotta details being similar between the buildings, none of the motifs on either of the buildings are extraordinary or unique (by the standards of the times), and terra cotta was almost a mass produced product in the 20's.
posted by ziggy"

I totally agree, most of these ornaments in the photos were pretty mundane, pretty as a whole facade, but individually not much to look at, and very mass produced- at least as it was in that era.
By that era they were using templates to shape blocks into various moldings in a way they made plaster ceiling cornices with a running template.

As far as reviving such designs, the plaster molds are long gone, making a mold of an existing piece and making them in clay results in a size loss due to shrinkage of around 10%, that is why new replacements for restoration cant be simply made in terra cotta by molding off originals. However, these flower, geometric and other designs are not rocket science, any decent clay sculptor like myself can easily model any of this stuff from decent photographs, and if need be- made 10% larger to compensate for that size loss as in the case of a restoration need.
Flowers, geometric designs and the like don't excite me, the ornaments that do- have animal or human faces on them- lions, griffins, Athena etc, getting human faces right and with expression takes a lot more skill than modelling some leaves or geometric designs, it's at a higher level of quality if done well.