DavidM— These films need to be run reel-to-reel, with changeovers, not on a platter. They are only set up for one machine with a platter. You’re not going to see any decent 70mm films in NY unless they change their configuration.
The Lafayette in Suffern does classics on Saturday morning along with their regular bookings. They run it about 30 of the 52 weeks a year with breaks in winter and summer, as wekk as two or three weekend festivals anually. The classic shows start at 11:30a. The public comes, it’s popular.
EdSolero: in addition they need a dedicated, skilled, projectionist. Someone who knows more than just threading. They need to know the entire booth, and what do do in the event of Murphy problems… Like the sound problems and the film jam. Special programs require special people. You can’t rely on the phone call to the tech people because something simple went wrong. You have a auditorium of people who are there for a ONE TIME event, and some of them may have travelled a sigificant distance/expense to come. Saying “I’m sorry” and issuing a pass good for two weeks ain’t it.
I have to agree with Vincent, the list is kind of lame. There is only one film I might consider coming to see, the rest are all nothing really special [to me]. I’m still feeling burnt by my experience at the 70mm LOA perfomance last March, so I wonder what any futher 70mm performances would be like. The lists from the Paramount and Castro have some class, but they probably were not chosen by the public.
Remember: “Also, it should be noted that all of the films that have been selected for Hollywood Classics were from the suggestion cards that were distributed at The Ziegfeld during Feb / March.”
Shutter? Typically no. The shutter is a fixed item and interrupts the light 48 times a second (2 blade shutter). This flicker can be seen, but is typically washed out by the film’s action. I can see shutter flicker on a white screen (no film) or areas where the frame is mostly white (such as the scene mentioned). A three blade shutter raises the interuption rate to 72 per second, but it also reduces light by 33%. If the shutter were out of time with the intermittent, you get what is called “travel ghost” which is an upward or downward smearing of picture. You’ll see it most promanently with white on black, such as titles. The larger the mis-timed shutter error is, the longer the smear. Flicker can also be caused by some fault in the lighting system. In the case of Xenon lighting (which 99% of theaters use) if there is something wrong with the rectifier, and AC reaches the lamp, it strobes. This will cause a flicker on screen as the one strobe rate isn’t the same as the shutter strobe rate, causing a beat between the two. Also, the lamp could be near the end of it’s service life. Many theaters push the life span of the bulb beyond it’s rated life since the lamps are expensive (relatively speaking, if you consider a $500-$800 expense every 6mo to a year expensive).
Other causes of flicker are the film itself, as in bad lab work.
That doesn’t make it any more palatable to see what they did to it. I remember it in it’s glory as a single screen house. Now it’s just the same-old-same-old black box screening room like any other ‘theater’ in the area. No class, nothig to set it apart from the rest. Even the outside has been destroyed.
Three times is better than one! This system is really bogging…
Gary, you may be confusing dye fade with just bad printing, or prints being made from elements several generations from the negative (which is the case on lots of these prints). Lots of factors as you know will affect the color.
Yes, pink is pink, and that’s faded Eastmancolor for sure. Colors not being as strong isn’t fade. When Eastman fades, everything goes at the same rate, all colors look ‘off’ not just one.
Your chances of seeing a faded print at a show like this are low to non-existant. I think the only place that still has faded prints in their libraries is Criterion. Pete A. would know WAY more about this than me. Any self respecting programmer would not show a pink print. The prints you are seeing are all reprints on modern low fade stocks (LPP or Kodak Vision) and are not original release prints. If you were seeing original release prints, only those from 1973/4 through 1984 would have fade, as these would come from what collectors refer to as the “EastmanZone”. It’s the 10-11 year period between the time that no fade IB Tech/Dye Transfer printing ended and LPP film came on the market. “High fade” Eastmancolor was the predominant film stock used during this period.
I want to see more TRUE 70mm productions on the screen. Ok, the sound was out of sync and I got angry, but the PICTURE! Oh, that picture. It just could not be compared to anything else I’ve seen recently in 35mm on any screen. More 70mm, and not 35mm blowups in 70, but TRUE 70mm.
Any theater can equip itself for 70mm, heck I know collectors that have 70mm equipment in their basement, but it’s not the same. This theater has all the proper pieces of the equasion already in place to put on a show that will let you come away with memories, and it should be utilized as such. I won’t make a special trip into the city for “Raiders”, “Close Encounters”, or even “Ben Hur” in 35mm, but I will do it again for any 70mm presentation.
Bravo! Thank you Bill. Wish I could have been there with you.
To Clearview: Let’s get more TRUE 70mm films on screen! Perhaps now the bugs are worked out, and taking all the suggestions and critisisms given it would be an awesome set of shows.
Attention to detail is when you prerun the show and notice the credits have been spliced together out of order. Then you take the time to open the splices and put it back together the right way rather than just run it. These are the sorts of details the audience never knows about, but this happened at one of last years films at the Lafayette. I forget the title, but I remember Pete reassembling the strips at the rewind bench so it would be right. The other question is what kind of film handler did the splices out of order to begin with? That’s a differnet topic entirely, but these are the kind of things you can find and fix when you have your operation fine tuned and know what to look for.
Pete, it may not be 70mm, but you can come run magnetic any time you want at my place :)
Thanks to Robert Harris for lending some credibility to the frustration that I and others experienced at the shows. You can only imagine how Robert feels knowing this treasure was not treated with the proper respect after the thousands of man hours put into restoring it. At least visually Robert, it was perfect at my show, and it was beautiful. Robert’s suggestion for a higher than normal ticket price is also an excellent one if it means the proper staff is on hand for a limited 70mm engagement. I would have gladly paid $20 to see LOA.
While it’s been suggested I was too critical and that I should be careful that management doesn’t just “take their ball and go home”, I disagree that negative comments should not be voiced. I’ve given both positive and negative comments. If you screw up, you need to be prepared to hear about it.
And as for what Ed has said, if the Zeigfeld wants continuing support, they will have to prove they are up to it. I’ll go to future shows they offer, but if I get the same lack of showmanship I got last week, then they would certainly loose a customer. I can get lack of showmanship anywhere, I don’t need to make a special trip to the city for it.
I sincerly hope the Ziegfeld continues the program, gets their act together, and books some other restored 70mm classics. For when they do, I’m there, and I want them to win me back.
By the way, Bill, scratches on film for some reason don’t bother me. Even splices don’t really faze me. I don’t consider that “not doing it right”. I’m happy to see a print of any repratory film, and many are quite used. I’ll take the scratches, splices, and dirt at heads/tails. The rare out-of-frame changeover. Heck, You’ve even seen me watch pink film.
“Not doing it right” is running a public show to paying customers you KNOW has problems that people will see. And unfortunately, that’s what they did Friday. I can’t and won’t speak for the other shows as I was not there. I believe you when you say the did a good job.
Focus, sync, and steadiness. Those are my three primary goals to make a film in my eyes enjoyable. Other factors that take away enjoyment (which the Ziegfeld did NOT have) is “travel ghost”, which is an improperly timed shutter. You see this as white vertical smears of light objects on black backgrounds (stands out like a sore thumb on titles).
“We are exactly on the same page. I am making excuses for nobody. Regardless of Marvin’s dedication and good intentions, to see a projection room with 70mm film wrapped around so many rollers, each a potential disaster, was shocking to me. This is state of the art?”
Gary, yes, this IS state of the art. In fact in my own home theater I put film around 5 rollers to go from feed reel to takeup reel (this is a necessity to handle large reels). Platters DO work, I don’t like them because when used improperly they damage film. When used properly, they are no different than reel-to-reel. The trick is knowing. Myself, I’ve never used a platter, but I’ve certainly come in contact with, handled, or seen, enough film ruined by them.
“Again, I commend Clearview for their programming and taking a chance on getting an audience in the age of home video, but certainly every criticism here is worthy of attention-from the flaws in the screenings to the passes. I do not want to settle for mediocrity, but I also don’t want to settle for perfection vs. nothing.”
Point well taken, and I do commend them for trying and all things considered (I said it earlier) they picked a good slate of films. All things considered I enjoyed the presentation of LOA in 70mm but as I am a perfectionist when I project, little stuff bothers me to the point where perhaps it gets all out of proportion. The image displayed on Friday was outstanding. Sharp, brightly lit, awesome audio….but it was out of sync. Then the image jittered. I’ve beat these horses enough already, I won’t continue.
Perfection is not hard to achieve. They can get it. They had it 30 years ago when I was a regular at that theater.
I will consider sending an email to the address you mentioned, although I’m sure this person is reading here too and has seen all my comments and has considered them in the light they were offered.
“I guess I’m a bit excited, too”
It’s understandable. We all love this artform and are very opinionated. They just need to try harder next time, and in regards to 70mm presentation, much harder.
Bill… none perfect? My goodness, that’s a powerful statement. That’s the point here. They should have all been perfect. Attention to details is important. To give credit where it’s due, yes they’ve run a good slate of films, but if you’re not going to do it right, don’t do it. Is this the kind of presenation they give for regular first run films?
Gary, what you say is true, but there is still no excuse for poor showmanship and knowingly putting on a show with a graring technical fault such as sound sync. I’m sorry, it’s inexcusable. If they knew that Friday’s performance would be marred by that, why didn’t they say so at the box office and offer tickets at a reduced price? Why did I have to say something to the manager, only to be given a pass good for 2 weeks? I don’t live in the city, I don’t get there often, a 2 week pass is a joke.
I could deal with a film break. It’s fixed, show goes on.
Knowingly showing a film to the paying public with an out of sync track is just piss poor.
I get better showmanship in Suffern NY, and in my basement. Yes, I’m dissapointed, it was my first show there in decades. I don’t hold this against the projectionist, I understand “marvin” probably doesn’t know how to set the digital delay and wouldn’t be allowed to. I hold it against Clearview. They should have had a full staff up there, both projectionist and technical guy for a special show like this. It was a 1 week engagement of a special format, and it was treated as if it was any other 35mm presentation. They should have had the proper people up there all week for this.
That print had a fair number of tape splices on it. You couldn’t hear them because of the DTS, but I could see the tape on the frames. Somewhere in the second part there was a section that had a very large number of taped areas in close sucession, lasting maybe 10-15 seconds. Is this perhaps the portion that wrapped around the int sprocket? I know what poorly made tape splices that ‘hinge’ do when they go through my projector and I tend to remake those with a slight overlap to prevent problems. I can only imagine what a hinged tape splice on a 70mm print looks like when traveling faster through a projector can cause. Doesn’t the int sprocket on a Century have a ‘stripper’ to prevent windup wraps? It’s good the show was able to continue, but now future audiences have a 10 second jump splice to deal with. That’s a big hole.
Bill, I hope for your sake it IS fixed. You have the conveniance to be able to attend multiple shows, where I do not. I’m left with the memory of a bad show.
I was at the Friday 3/24 show and you couldn’t miss it. I heard from another viewer that the 3/25 show also had sync problems. Maybe you didn’t notice it, but that viewer with projection experience did.
Bill, if anything the second part was more out of sync than the first. I don’t know how to explain that. I was told a lot by the manager. Remember the “replacement print” being on the way, only to tell another customer a few minutes later there is no replacement print.
Vito: yea, magnetic. I LOVE MAGNETIC.
Bill, of course we will go to the Ziegfeld again. But they better have better presentation next time.
It was there the entire show. All someone had to do was adjust the digital offset delay. But the projectionist is probably not allowed (or knows how) to do this, that’s for a “tech” to do. Had the film been prescreened, they could have gotten someone in to fix it. I’m sorry, it’s inexcusable to run a film out of sync, and for FOUR hours on a SPECIAL presentation of a 70mm film. I tend to notice these things even if off by a few frames because I project myself. When the general audience notices it, it’s BAD. First impressions are lasting impressions. This was my first time to this theater in 30 years. I’ll remember what I saw and how Clearview doesn’t think any more of this venue than they do of the silly little black box screening rooms they run at their other multiplexes.
DavidM— These films need to be run reel-to-reel, with changeovers, not on a platter. They are only set up for one machine with a platter. You’re not going to see any decent 70mm films in NY unless they change their configuration.
Lets not let this degenerate into a political argument. Everyone has strong opinions on 9/11, but please, this isn’t the place.
The Lafayette in Suffern does classics on Saturday morning along with their regular bookings. They run it about 30 of the 52 weeks a year with breaks in winter and summer, as wekk as two or three weekend festivals anually. The classic shows start at 11:30a. The public comes, it’s popular.
EdSolero: in addition they need a dedicated, skilled, projectionist. Someone who knows more than just threading. They need to know the entire booth, and what do do in the event of Murphy problems… Like the sound problems and the film jam. Special programs require special people. You can’t rely on the phone call to the tech people because something simple went wrong. You have a auditorium of people who are there for a ONE TIME event, and some of them may have travelled a sigificant distance/expense to come. Saying “I’m sorry” and issuing a pass good for two weeks ain’t it.
I have to agree with Vincent, the list is kind of lame. There is only one film I might consider coming to see, the rest are all nothing really special [to me]. I’m still feeling burnt by my experience at the 70mm LOA perfomance last March, so I wonder what any futher 70mm performances would be like. The lists from the Paramount and Castro have some class, but they probably were not chosen by the public.
Remember:
“Also, it should be noted that all of the films that have been selected for Hollywood Classics were from the suggestion cards that were distributed at The Ziegfeld during Feb / March.”
Superman (original). The 1978 version?
70mm maybe?
Shutter? Typically no. The shutter is a fixed item and interrupts the light 48 times a second (2 blade shutter). This flicker can be seen, but is typically washed out by the film’s action. I can see shutter flicker on a white screen (no film) or areas where the frame is mostly white (such as the scene mentioned). A three blade shutter raises the interuption rate to 72 per second, but it also reduces light by 33%. If the shutter were out of time with the intermittent, you get what is called “travel ghost” which is an upward or downward smearing of picture. You’ll see it most promanently with white on black, such as titles. The larger the mis-timed shutter error is, the longer the smear. Flicker can also be caused by some fault in the lighting system. In the case of Xenon lighting (which 99% of theaters use) if there is something wrong with the rectifier, and AC reaches the lamp, it strobes. This will cause a flicker on screen as the one strobe rate isn’t the same as the shutter strobe rate, causing a beat between the two. Also, the lamp could be near the end of it’s service life. Many theaters push the life span of the bulb beyond it’s rated life since the lamps are expensive (relatively speaking, if you consider a $500-$800 expense every 6mo to a year expensive).
Other causes of flicker are the film itself, as in bad lab work.
That doesn’t make it any more palatable to see what they did to it. I remember it in it’s glory as a single screen house. Now it’s just the same-old-same-old black box screening room like any other ‘theater’ in the area. No class, nothig to set it apart from the rest. Even the outside has been destroyed.
“Speak your mind-HE WANTS INPUT!!”
To a point… Remember how I was extreamly critical of the LOA issues? Very vocal?
Well, I eventually sent an email with my input/thanks/criticism/suggestions. No reply. Eh…
How big is the screen at this theater in Babylon?
Three times is better than one! This system is really bogging…
Gary, you may be confusing dye fade with just bad printing, or prints being made from elements several generations from the negative (which is the case on lots of these prints). Lots of factors as you know will affect the color.
Yes, pink is pink, and that’s faded Eastmancolor for sure. Colors not being as strong isn’t fade. When Eastman fades, everything goes at the same rate, all colors look ‘off’ not just one.
Your chances of seeing a faded print at a show like this are low to non-existant. I think the only place that still has faded prints in their libraries is Criterion. Pete A. would know WAY more about this than me. Any self respecting programmer would not show a pink print. The prints you are seeing are all reprints on modern low fade stocks (LPP or Kodak Vision) and are not original release prints. If you were seeing original release prints, only those from 1973/4 through 1984 would have fade, as these would come from what collectors refer to as the “EastmanZone”. It’s the 10-11 year period between the time that no fade IB Tech/Dye Transfer printing ended and LPP film came on the market. “High fade” Eastmancolor was the predominant film stock used during this period.
I want to see more TRUE 70mm productions on the screen. Ok, the sound was out of sync and I got angry, but the PICTURE! Oh, that picture. It just could not be compared to anything else I’ve seen recently in 35mm on any screen. More 70mm, and not 35mm blowups in 70, but TRUE 70mm.
Any theater can equip itself for 70mm, heck I know collectors that have 70mm equipment in their basement, but it’s not the same. This theater has all the proper pieces of the equasion already in place to put on a show that will let you come away with memories, and it should be utilized as such. I won’t make a special trip into the city for “Raiders”, “Close Encounters”, or even “Ben Hur” in 35mm, but I will do it again for any 70mm presentation.
Oh boy Robert, you better hope Larry isn’t reading here… :)
Bravo! Thank you Bill. Wish I could have been there with you.
To Clearview: Let’s get more TRUE 70mm films on screen! Perhaps now the bugs are worked out, and taking all the suggestions and critisisms given it would be an awesome set of shows.
Attention to detail is when you prerun the show and notice the credits have been spliced together out of order. Then you take the time to open the splices and put it back together the right way rather than just run it. These are the sorts of details the audience never knows about, but this happened at one of last years films at the Lafayette. I forget the title, but I remember Pete reassembling the strips at the rewind bench so it would be right. The other question is what kind of film handler did the splices out of order to begin with? That’s a differnet topic entirely, but these are the kind of things you can find and fix when you have your operation fine tuned and know what to look for.
Pete, it may not be 70mm, but you can come run magnetic any time you want at my place :)
Thanks to Robert Harris for lending some credibility to the frustration that I and others experienced at the shows. You can only imagine how Robert feels knowing this treasure was not treated with the proper respect after the thousands of man hours put into restoring it. At least visually Robert, it was perfect at my show, and it was beautiful. Robert’s suggestion for a higher than normal ticket price is also an excellent one if it means the proper staff is on hand for a limited 70mm engagement. I would have gladly paid $20 to see LOA.
While it’s been suggested I was too critical and that I should be careful that management doesn’t just “take their ball and go home”, I disagree that negative comments should not be voiced. I’ve given both positive and negative comments. If you screw up, you need to be prepared to hear about it.
And as for what Ed has said, if the Zeigfeld wants continuing support, they will have to prove they are up to it. I’ll go to future shows they offer, but if I get the same lack of showmanship I got last week, then they would certainly loose a customer. I can get lack of showmanship anywhere, I don’t need to make a special trip to the city for it.
I sincerly hope the Ziegfeld continues the program, gets their act together, and books some other restored 70mm classics. For when they do, I’m there, and I want them to win me back.
By the way, Bill, scratches on film for some reason don’t bother me. Even splices don’t really faze me. I don’t consider that “not doing it right”. I’m happy to see a print of any repratory film, and many are quite used. I’ll take the scratches, splices, and dirt at heads/tails. The rare out-of-frame changeover. Heck, You’ve even seen me watch pink film.
“Not doing it right” is running a public show to paying customers you KNOW has problems that people will see. And unfortunately, that’s what they did Friday. I can’t and won’t speak for the other shows as I was not there. I believe you when you say the did a good job.
Focus, sync, and steadiness. Those are my three primary goals to make a film in my eyes enjoyable. Other factors that take away enjoyment (which the Ziegfeld did NOT have) is “travel ghost”, which is an improperly timed shutter. You see this as white vertical smears of light objects on black backgrounds (stands out like a sore thumb on titles).
“We are exactly on the same page. I am making excuses for nobody. Regardless of Marvin’s dedication and good intentions, to see a projection room with 70mm film wrapped around so many rollers, each a potential disaster, was shocking to me. This is state of the art?”
Gary, yes, this IS state of the art. In fact in my own home theater I put film around 5 rollers to go from feed reel to takeup reel (this is a necessity to handle large reels). Platters DO work, I don’t like them because when used improperly they damage film. When used properly, they are no different than reel-to-reel. The trick is knowing. Myself, I’ve never used a platter, but I’ve certainly come in contact with, handled, or seen, enough film ruined by them.
“Again, I commend Clearview for their programming and taking a chance on getting an audience in the age of home video, but certainly every criticism here is worthy of attention-from the flaws in the screenings to the passes. I do not want to settle for mediocrity, but I also don’t want to settle for perfection vs. nothing.”
Point well taken, and I do commend them for trying and all things considered (I said it earlier) they picked a good slate of films. All things considered I enjoyed the presentation of LOA in 70mm but as I am a perfectionist when I project, little stuff bothers me to the point where perhaps it gets all out of proportion. The image displayed on Friday was outstanding. Sharp, brightly lit, awesome audio….but it was out of sync. Then the image jittered. I’ve beat these horses enough already, I won’t continue.
Perfection is not hard to achieve. They can get it. They had it 30 years ago when I was a regular at that theater.
I will consider sending an email to the address you mentioned, although I’m sure this person is reading here too and has seen all my comments and has considered them in the light they were offered.
“I guess I’m a bit excited, too”
It’s understandable. We all love this artform and are very opinionated. They just need to try harder next time, and in regards to 70mm presentation, much harder.
Bill… none perfect? My goodness, that’s a powerful statement. That’s the point here. They should have all been perfect. Attention to details is important. To give credit where it’s due, yes they’ve run a good slate of films, but if you’re not going to do it right, don’t do it. Is this the kind of presenation they give for regular first run films?
Gary, what you say is true, but there is still no excuse for poor showmanship and knowingly putting on a show with a graring technical fault such as sound sync. I’m sorry, it’s inexcusable. If they knew that Friday’s performance would be marred by that, why didn’t they say so at the box office and offer tickets at a reduced price? Why did I have to say something to the manager, only to be given a pass good for 2 weeks? I don’t live in the city, I don’t get there often, a 2 week pass is a joke.
I could deal with a film break. It’s fixed, show goes on.
Knowingly showing a film to the paying public with an out of sync track is just piss poor.
I get better showmanship in Suffern NY, and in my basement. Yes, I’m dissapointed, it was my first show there in decades. I don’t hold this against the projectionist, I understand “marvin” probably doesn’t know how to set the digital delay and wouldn’t be allowed to. I hold it against Clearview. They should have had a full staff up there, both projectionist and technical guy for a special show like this. It was a 1 week engagement of a special format, and it was treated as if it was any other 35mm presentation. They should have had the proper people up there all week for this.
That print had a fair number of tape splices on it. You couldn’t hear them because of the DTS, but I could see the tape on the frames. Somewhere in the second part there was a section that had a very large number of taped areas in close sucession, lasting maybe 10-15 seconds. Is this perhaps the portion that wrapped around the int sprocket? I know what poorly made tape splices that ‘hinge’ do when they go through my projector and I tend to remake those with a slight overlap to prevent problems. I can only imagine what a hinged tape splice on a 70mm print looks like when traveling faster through a projector can cause. Doesn’t the int sprocket on a Century have a ‘stripper’ to prevent windup wraps? It’s good the show was able to continue, but now future audiences have a 10 second jump splice to deal with. That’s a big hole.
Bill, I hope for your sake it IS fixed. You have the conveniance to be able to attend multiple shows, where I do not. I’m left with the memory of a bad show.
I was at the Friday 3/24 show and you couldn’t miss it. I heard from another viewer that the 3/25 show also had sync problems. Maybe you didn’t notice it, but that viewer with projection experience did.
Bill, if anything the second part was more out of sync than the first. I don’t know how to explain that. I was told a lot by the manager. Remember the “replacement print” being on the way, only to tell another customer a few minutes later there is no replacement print.
Vito: yea, magnetic. I LOVE MAGNETIC.
Bill, of course we will go to the Ziegfeld again. But they better have better presentation next time.
It was there the entire show. All someone had to do was adjust the digital offset delay. But the projectionist is probably not allowed (or knows how) to do this, that’s for a “tech” to do. Had the film been prescreened, they could have gotten someone in to fix it. I’m sorry, it’s inexcusable to run a film out of sync, and for FOUR hours on a SPECIAL presentation of a 70mm film. I tend to notice these things even if off by a few frames because I project myself. When the general audience notices it, it’s BAD. First impressions are lasting impressions. This was my first time to this theater in 30 years. I’ll remember what I saw and how Clearview doesn’t think any more of this venue than they do of the silly little black box screening rooms they run at their other multiplexes.