The video you linked to above showing the installation of the IMAX projector at The Empire, Leicester Square mentions the screen weight of 215kg.
So it does. :–)
Just doing a quick Google search, Harkness (for instance) say their screens weigh 0.5kg/m2, so:
Cineworld (Empire) Leicester Square IMAX – 26.5mx15.6m = 413.4 m2 – at 0.5kg/m2 around 200kg or so and therefore about the same as the weight quoted in the video.
The extra height of the BFI would add about another 50kg, so I suspect the 800kg figure is erroneous.
IMAX with Laser rollout has been very slow and it will be interesting to see if Watford gets it at opening.
Cineworld have just signed an agreement for a number of IMAX with Laser installations (for new and existing sites) and I expect that this mostly relates to the scaled down version that IMAX have said they will provide for smaller venues rather than the existing design for full size/classic “Grand Theatre” IMAXs. The Xenon-based IMAX Digital projectors will work fine with an 80ft. screen, though.
Not surprised by your comments on the Vue Watford! I suspect Vue won’t throw capex at it but if they do then perhaps luxury seating would be a good route for them to take.
I expect Cineworld Watford will cover a few hours of free parking, but not enough to cover seeing multiple features in one session—but perhaps you could leave the car park and reenter it to get another ticket for validation?!
IMAX Corp. also holds patents on “theatre geometry.”
Therefore, I’m not sure if Cineworld’s Superscreens “can” be the “same” as IMPACT auditoria, excepting the ones they’ve inherited from Empire Cinemas. Certainly most (or all?) “premium large format” auditoria I’ve looked at have the last row considerably further away from the screen in relation to the screen’s width.
Not sure exactly what “IMPACT Blue” means? My impression was that it related to luxury seating vs. the “regular” “IMPACT” screens.
The above linked press release is about the Hemel Hempstead IMPACT screen (as it was then), it looks like Christie Vive line array speakers were installed, so your views on the sound quality achieved would be of interest?
Also, notice it says “The IMPACT screen uses Empire Cinema’s patented IMPACT design…”
Thanks so much CF100 for the detailed reply and comparison of projection and sound systems at BFI IMAX and Cineworld ‘Empire’ Leicester Square.
You’re welcome. :–)
On top of the fact that most Marvel movies seem to have been colour regraded to look flat, perhaps the lower resolution of 3D at BFI IMAX without an IMAX with Laser system contributed to the picture looking so dull?
Resolution shouldn’t affect that. OTOH e.g. better contrast does yield improved perceived resolution.
The (Xenon lamp) IMAX Digital projectors used at the BFI might be previous generation; whilst IMAX just brand all the projectors as “IMAX Digital” the internals do change. Maybe the lamps are due for replacement soon? The use of polarisation for 3D doesn’t help either.
Have watched that BritishFilmInstitute youtube video before. There’s a brief glimpse of a row of rocker-style switches labelled audio channels 1 to 6 followed by a switch for Sub 1&2 and then another for Sub 3&4. Surely they are for subwoofers (LFE channel)?
I did visit the booth at the BFI IMAX a few years ago, I vaguely remember asking the projectionist about them but I’ve forgotten his response! Incidentally, the booth was absolutely spotless.
They state the new (current) BFI IMAX screen weighed 800kg yet the Empire, Leicester Square IMAX screen only weighed 215kg. That’s some difference considering the screen widths are almost identical and the BFI screen is only approximately 5m taller than the Leicester Square one.
I see the 800kg figure on the BFI site; where did you get the figure for the Cineworld (Empire) Leicester Square?
The BFI screen was coated in situ with silver paint for 3D, the Leicester Square one wasn’t as the laser projection system doesn’t use polarisation for 3D.
In a few months (Aug 2018?) a brand new 9-screen (40,000 sq ft and 1,500 seats) Cineworld cinema is opening in Watford which will include an IMAX high definition screen seating 450. Plan to check that out as soon as it opens. It’s not far from Cineworld (previously an Empire Cinema) in Hemel Hempstead which is the IMAX cinema that I have visited the most over the past couple of years.
Thank you for the info, I wasn’t aware that the old Charter Place shopping centre next to intu Watford was finally being redone, it’s been floating around as a proposal for years.
Looking at the “APPROVED PROPOSED CINEMA LEVEL 2 PLAN” document, Auditorium 1 is the largest; 433 seats. Screen width I’d estimate to be as much as 80ft.!
Wonder what will happen to the Vue Watford? The area might at risk of becoming overscreened albeit Auditoria 4-9 in the above linked plans aren’t very big.
The only time I can recall seeing a presentation with an SDDS soundtrack used was “Bad Boys” in Screen 7 at the Warner West End.
I don’t think the film used all 8 tracks and I don’t think Screen 7 had 5 screen speakers for the left centre/right centre channels either.
It worked fine and I didn’t notice any dropouts, which was a major concern as the SDDS data was stored at the edges of the film strip. I did like the SDDS trailer.
As for how it compared to the other formats, it would be impossible to meaningfully compare subtle differences between lossy formats under those conditions.
The SDDS decoder was an interesting device for that time, e.g. it had onboard DSP processing including digital EQ.
SDDS used Sony’s ATRAC lossy compression system. I still have an old Sony MiniDisc (ATRAC was also used for MD) recorder lying around somewhere (probably at the back of the loft!) which I thought worked well at the time (late 1990s) but since then I’ve trained myself to be very sensitive to the artifacts of lossy audio compression systems. ATRAC itself went through various versions and the encoder quality is critical with any lossy compression system.
In the early days of online music stores and applications (e.g. iTunes), I installed Sony’s Connect store/software on my PC, which as well as selling ATRAC encoded content could extract (aka “rip”) audio off CDs and then reduce the file size using its ATRAC encoder.
No idea how this compared to professional encoders used for theatrical releases or the ones found in consumer MiniDisc recorders but it certainly couldn’t compete with a good AAC or even MP3 encode. Audible artifacts and dulling of high frequencies.
Indeed THX are still around in the home theatre world, although I haven’t really followed what they’re doing these days. The brand did get tarnished once it started being slapped on Sound Blaster soundcards and low quality multimedia speakers!
Alas my own home cinema (front projection with custom speakers—Electro-Voice subwoofers and satellites fitted with coaxial bass/mids using HF compression drivers) and the room it was in were destroyed by a leak a few years ago. You really don’t want to hear the rest of the sorry story, but it will be put back sooner or later. :–(
LARGE_screen_format: You’re very welcome, glad you liked my posts! :–)
I don’t think there are any THX-certified locations in the UK and there aren’t many left worldwide.
When THX was formed in 1983, there was a great need to improve sound in cinemas and get it closer to the then current state of the art.
Many venues had problems with excessive reverberation times (older ones in particular) and poor isolation (new build multiplexes or subdivided older venues (low cost “drop-wall” conversions and the like.)) Dolby Stereo had brought 4 channel matrixed sound to 35mm optical tracks but venues were just sticking in the Dolby Stereo decoder and adding surrounds with the old Altec Voice of the Theatre screen speakers still there, in whatever condition they were in by then.
THX venues would also feature baffle walls with flush mounted screen speakers (though there was nothing stopping non-THX venues from building them!) and the THX crossover/monitor unit.
Not only is the crossover/monitor unit a long discontinued product but it’s useless for modern 3-way screen speakers, let alone the emerging line array systems, and digital active crossovers that can be configured to do the same thing are available, so it’s not needed.
THX certification per se isn’t really an absolute guarantee of excellence.
Although the flagship venues clearly had attention to detail paid to them, that didn’t mean all THX venues sounded that good.
For example, there were 2 THX certified screens at the Hoyts multiplex in the Bluewater Shopping Centre (now a Showcase); they didn’t really sounded any different to any other run of the mill multiplex of the time (late 1990s), i.e. medicore.
Whereas e.g. the mid-2000s THX certified system in the old Empire 1 was amazing.
The IMAX Digital system has “21st Century” quality control included as the system is automatically checked and re-calibrated every day and the picture is constantly monitored by cameras in the auditorium, plus all installations are monitored by their Network Operations Centre in Mississauga.
Whereas THX only requires annual reinspections.
THX certification of cinemas didn’t really gain much traction in the UK; I heard that this was partially due to political reasons. On a worldwide basis I think operators started to drop it after the 35mm digital sound formats became commonplace—which makes sense since they could e.g. advertise “digital sound,” put the Dolby Digital logo above the entrance, and play the trailer. With DTS and SDDS out there as well, the average patron was probably confused by the “acronym soup”!
THX Ltd. has gone through changes of ownership and various directions over the years; they are now launching a new system to compete with Dolby Cinema and IMAX (which on the face of it doesn’t sound like a sensible move to me but there we are.)
From my recollection from the “JBL at the Movies” publication referenced in my previous comment, the specification was:
-Usual THX-certified JBL speakers (4675C main screen speakers, 4645B subwoofers, 8330 surrounds [about 16 IIRC]
-THX crossover/monitor.
-QSC amplification.
-Dolby Digital/DTS in both screens, SDDS also in Screen 7.
They did sound very good indeed (although I might temper this by saying relative to expectations at that time!) and there was some mention in that publication of specific work that had gone into the acoustics for the venue. In any case, I always thought the acoustics were very good and it doesn’t suffer from the parallel walls and very early sidewall reflections from the left/right screen speakers which happen with the typical “box” auditorium with wall-to-wall screens.
The only problem was that it didn’t really have enough LFE capability for the digital formats.
As THX certified auditoria, they also had to have good acoustic isolation—you could only hear leakage of peak LFE levels if the auditorium you were in was quiet.
The rest of the auditoria all had JBL speakers as well and they also all sounded good. Of course, many other venues were using similar equipment then, so it does demonstrate that getting all the details right (incuding system alignment/calibration and real projectionists to run film-based shows) makes all the difference.
To clarify: The VUE West End in its current form opened as the Warner West End (the plaque from the 1993 re-opening post-rebuilt is still embedded in the pavement outside)—the “Village” name was appended later when there was a joint venture between WB and Village Roadshow Pictures.
I’ve seen a number of comments on the Web suggesting that the “Village” suffix was something to do with a “village” of multiplex screens, which wasn’t the case!
To add to MovieGeek2013’s comment, as a UCI operated location the Empire LSQ wouled usually get all the major UIP-distributed releases.
Not sure who makes the decisions on what movies can be shown by which cinema in Leicester Square
Some years ago, I went for a meal at a Garfunkel’s Restaurant just off the square, and a couple of individuals sat at the adjacent table were having an impromptu meeting about which of the West End cinemas to place a number of upcoming movies.
About every 5 minutes one of the waiters would ask them if they were ready to order yet (which they never did.)
I wish I could say that I gained some profound insight into the machinations of film distribution, but the level of discussion was more like “the kids will go for that one!”
That makes sense regarding how each cinema on Leicester Square, back in the 80’s and 90’s, would work out which movies they would be showing and why all cinemas were not showing the same movies at the same time.
As I understood it, at least for the opening weeks, there was some sort of agreement that only one cinema operator in Leicester Square could book each title.
Empire Cinemas had a hard time getting bookings for LSQ, even after the IMAX opened.
This no longer seems to be the case.
I must say how disappointed I am with the lack of information that can be found online regarding the actual sizes of cinema screens.
VUE West End Screens 5/7 were, IIRC, said to have 40ft. wide screens in the “JBL at the Movies” promotional supplement that was published on behalf of Harman (JBL’s parent company) by Dennis Publishing and came with an edition of “Home Cinema Choice” and also put out as promotional blurb by Harman. I have half a dozen copies of it somewhere!
Screen 5 has a screen width of 13.1m/43ft. (by the chord) according to UNICK Architects' current licensing plans. (Dimension is actually written on the plans = 13145mm.)
Presumably the same width for Screen 7.
Screen 6 I’d estimate from the licensing plans to be a bit under 30ft.
Screen 8 and Screen 9 also have screen dimensions marked on the plans, Screen 8 is unreadable (it’s a bit smaller than Screen 9) and Screen 9 is 7.7m (actually 7744mm!) or about 25ft. wide.
I wouldn’t bother with the four basement screens (1-4) as they don’t have adequate isolation and screens are off-centre, but FYI for Screens 1/¾ I estimate the screens widths to be about 25-26ft., Screen 2 about 22ft. wide.
Screen 5 auditorium — about 21m from screen to last row, or about 1.6x screen width. The auditorium is about 23m wide max., therefore its total area is about 5000sq.ft. (Again ditto or approximately ditto for its sibling situated above, Screen 7.)
Although it’s unlikely that an auditorium with between 350 and 550 seats will have an average sized screen, it’s not easy to gauge the size of the screen when it has a small number of luxury recliner seats and/or sofas etc as is the case in a number of different cinemas.
Indeed seat count doesn’t have a such a strong relationship to the auditorium size these days. It’s also about the auditorium geometry and relative screen size—I’ll discuss this further in another post.
Do they think that regular moviegoers are not interested in this information […]?
If they do, they would probably be correct. ;–)
Cinema operators have, at least as long as I can remember, almost always been dreadful about disseminating details of the audio/projection system spec. The fact that the information they do provide is often limited, sometimes erroneous or odd suggests technical illiteracy rather than a conspiracy!
If you can find the plans for the cinema (often available to download as part of their entertainment/alcohol license) then you can estimate the screen width for yourself (also relative to the auditorium size and layout.)
You will sometimes find more detailed specifications in Cinema Technology Today (formerly Cinema Technology Magazine) if a new or upgraded venue is the subject of one of their articles, albeit it’s undergone a change of ownership and revamp and only a limited selection of archived back issues are currently available on their website.
This is a very complicated project involving demolishing the whole block and excavating a massive 34m deep hole in the ground, right next to a busy area with the need to have heavy constraints on access, noise, dust and vibration.
A myriad of potential unknowns could block progress along critical paths; for example, as I mentioned in a previous post, the scheme was altered with the NW corner of the new building “chopped off” to allow for a UK Power Networks tunnel that had been “discovered” during enabling works!
I hadn’t actually realised that the replacement cinema opening date had been pushed back but progress did seem to be slow indeed. At this stage there should be less in the way of unknowns to scupper things…
IMAX adjust the colour for their IMAX versions of films, and this would be different for the version supplied to conventional (Xenon lamp) IMAX Digital and IMAX with Laser venues.
I’ve certainly seen excellent images from Xenon lamp light source IMAX Digital projectors.
Regarding the sound systems:
For 15/70 at the BFI: The 6 track “Sonics” system for 15/70 with the PCM data losslessly stored on CD-ROMs and sync’d to the film on playback. (N.B. IMAX never use a separate LFE channel, 6 = left, centre, right, left surround, right surround and then the additional upper centre or so-called “Voice of God” channel—which I don’t think is used much, if at all, these days, certainly not for feature films?)
For digital at either location: 6 track lossless digital. Additionally, as of the laser projector installation, the Cineworld (Empire) Leicester Square supports IMAX’s 12 track system with two of the extra channels assigned as left/right side and the other four for overheads.
AFAIK the BFI uses the older generation IMAX/Sonics speakers; see:
There is a mess of additional speakers which I assume are, along with the rear array that’s installed, for non-IMAX presentations. The left/centre/right IMAX speakers can be seen with the upper centre “Voice of God”—the left speaker has someone standing next to it wearing a “hi-vis” jacket. If that’s not clear: Photo of a rather battered example of one.
Not sure why there are two sets of these non-IMAX speakers; maybe they old set were left behind the screen after an upgrade in 2010?
Also not entirely clear on the subwoofers for IMAX presentations, e.g. there’s just not enough resolution in that video to identify the 4 units (2 drivers in each) at the bottom of the screen.
Incidentally, notice that the Leicester Square IMAX does include a “Voice of God” speaker, whilst many new IMAX Digital installations don’t.
The main screen speakers are the newer IMAX “Kanga” speakers for larger IMAX auditoria: high resolution photo.
Subwoofers with 12" high excursion drivers are at the bottom of that photo; a number of these can be seen being installed in the video.
Both the BFI and the Cineworld (Empire) Leicester Square IMAX have 19" rackmount units for IMAX’s NEXOS Audyssey-based EQ system installed, but I’m not sure if this is used for digital presentations only at the BFI.
The Cineworld (Empire) Leicester Square has 6 additional smaller speakers on the sidewalls and ceilings, again installed concurrently with the IMAX with Laser projection system, for the IMAX 12 channel system.
Acoustics: The Cineworld (Empire) Leicester Square doesn’t have absolute isolation from the Superscreen (there’s a limit to what multiple layers of plasterboard and mineral wool can do—the screens are back to back!)—but then again you will rarely hear any leakage from the Superscreen (happens with peak LFE use) in the average IMAX “blockbuster” title as it’ll be masked by the film’s own audio.
The Cineworld (Empire) Leicester Square does suffer acoustically from not being a purpose-built IMAX venue.
Compared to the old Empire 1, in which the slap echo issue could be a real problem for dialogue intelligibility, it’s much improved but it’s still a wide auditorium.
On the other hand the width might improve matters as instead of having the sidewalls square to the screen edges, causing earlier lateral reflections, there’s more space.
As for 15/70 projection, it seems like a retrograde step for a film shot digitally, with very heavy CGI use, and edited and finished digitally also.
Christopher Nolan apparently used an all-optical process with no digital finishing for “Dunkirk,” although in my view it looks inconsistent, grainy and less than sharp compared to current generation high-end digital material.
Speaking of “Dunkirk,” the full 1.43:1 frame wasn’t shown at the Cineworld (Empire) Leicester Square, but most IMAX content is now 1.9:1 maximum height anyway.
As for the screen widths, the auditoriums are around the same depth, the BFI being about a row deeper IIRC; I’ve seen 26.5m as well as 26m quoted as the screen width at the BFI whilst Empire Cinemas stated the Leicester Square IMAX screen width as 26.5m. Whether or not it’s 0.5m wider I think is a fairly moot point though as the screens are both very wide and both auditoria place the audience in the “correct” location relative to the screen per IMAX specifications.
I think that’s enough of a “brain dump” for one day, over and out for now… :–)
joeswin: Fascinating indeed—sounds like a great project! :–)
Visiting the Westminster Archives has long been on my “to do” list and I hadn’t realised those plans were held there, did you find it at all difficult to gain access?
Please upload a copy of your project somewhere if you are able to, I’d (and I trust anyone else reading this would) very much appreciate it?
LARGE_screen_format: The cinema was closed in January of this year to strip out the foyer and to get it to a state which allowed for ongoing building works whilst keeping the cinema open to the public.
The former Screen 2 had been stripped by the end of August 2017 according to the member of staff I spoke to at that time.
With the public areas of the main foyer and vestibule from Leicester Square and the 4DX complete Cineworld publicised the changes they’d made in April 2018—e.g.YouTube Video of Gala Opening.
No idea what further phases Cineworld have planned but the information I had last month from talking to a member of staff was that Cineworld weren’t planning on doing anything to the IMAX and Superscreen at the moment as the conversion of the old Screen 1 was completed at a time that is still fairly recent.
As can be seen from this application, it was made on behalf of London Clubs Management. The cinema is sublet from the Casino who hold the head lease (building owned by London and Regional Properties)—no idea what the arrangements are but it might reasonably be surmised that Cineworld can’t redo the canopy/signage unilaterally.
There is a building control application dated March 2017 for a full refubishment of the Casino. That scheme doesn’t seem to have been taken forward but it might be the case that an overhaul is in the pipeline.
From my previous post linking to a conceptual proposal for complete redevelopment of the Empire site by London and Regional Properties, the casino is branded as “Caesars Palace” in the drawings of the facade and as Caesars Entertainment now operate the casino it might be the case that any replacement would take that name along with Cineworld branding.
Zappomatic: Hmm, I’d assumed they do sequential numbering of Screens 1-3 from the front-to-back (or left-to-right) of the foyer…
The former Screen 4 (96 seats) is the one that uses the space that was previously toilets; you took a photo of it from the foyer in a stripped out state a couple of months ago.
I, too, found that performances were scheduled for Screen 2 a couple of days ago. I can’t remember what seating layout was shown, though. (i.e. Whether it was the former Screen 4 or 5!)
Incidentally, there is an article on these screens in the September 2008 issue of Cinema Technology Magazine—complete with a picture taken from the roof above the former Screen 5 showing Swiss Centre in a mostly demolished state!
Now I’m getting confused. Isn’t Screen 2 the former Screen 4? Also had a good look through listings on the Cineworld site for Friday this week, couldn’t find any performances in Screens 1 or 2…
Addendum to previous post: This scheme seems to be somewhat “pie in the sky” in terms of its feasibility given the potential constraints on adding significant basement depth with numerous adjacent properties and obscuring windows of the Premier Inn and the new hotel (Hotel Indigo) in 1-4 Leicester Sq. (The cross-sectional view doesn’t make sense at all in terms of cinema auditoria size and positioning, but of course that could soon be changed were this project taken forward.)
I hope theatreofvarieties' suggestion that London & Regional Properties (who own 5-6 Leicester Square) weren’t planning on demolishing the building any time soon was correct (also, decades left on the cinema lease…)
But here’s a nightmare conceptual proposal commissioned by L&R to create an utter carbuncle with below ground cinemas:
It says that their role is the enabling works before fit-out, including “demolition, asbestos removal, form new openings and structural alterations.”
It goes on to say that only “extent of the removal works both and in turn the demolition and structural alterations” were not known at project commencement and only after “existing services, asbestos and structure [are] uncovered” will it be possible to ascertain the scope required.
Given that their stated project duration is 12 weeks, and that from what I currently think I can see externally the foyer works appear to be far from complete, it might be the case that the works have turned out to be more extensive than originally estimated, with consequential effects on the reopening date.
joeswin: I think you could try uploading it to Dropbox or other file hosting service?
Thanks for the information on the Westminster Archives. :–)
LARGE_screen_format:
So it does. :–)
Just doing a quick Google search, Harkness (for instance) say their screens weigh 0.5kg/m2, so:
Cineworld (Empire) Leicester Square IMAX – 26.5mx15.6m = 413.4 m2 – at 0.5kg/m2 around 200kg or so and therefore about the same as the weight quoted in the video.
The extra height of the BFI would add about another 50kg, so I suspect the 800kg figure is erroneous.
IMAX with Laser rollout has been very slow and it will be interesting to see if Watford gets it at opening.
Cineworld have just signed an agreement for a number of IMAX with Laser installations (for new and existing sites) and I expect that this mostly relates to the scaled down version that IMAX have said they will provide for smaller venues rather than the existing design for full size/classic “Grand Theatre” IMAXs. The Xenon-based IMAX Digital projectors will work fine with an 80ft. screen, though.
Not surprised by your comments on the Vue Watford! I suspect Vue won’t throw capex at it but if they do then perhaps luxury seating would be a good route for them to take.
I expect Cineworld Watford will cover a few hours of free parking, but not enough to cover seeing multiple features in one session—but perhaps you could leave the car park and reenter it to get another ticket for validation?!
LARGE_screen_format: Thomas Anderson (“Benefical owner” of Empire Cinemas) holds a couple of patents on auditorium geometry.
Cinema structure and a method for constructing a cinema structure.
IMAX Corp. also holds patents on “theatre geometry.”
Therefore, I’m not sure if Cineworld’s Superscreens “can” be the “same” as IMPACT auditoria, excepting the ones they’ve inherited from Empire Cinemas. Certainly most (or all?) “premium large format” auditoria I’ve looked at have the last row considerably further away from the screen in relation to the screen’s width.
Not sure exactly what “IMPACT Blue” means? My impression was that it related to luxury seating vs. the “regular” “IMPACT” screens.
Christie adds Vive Audio Excellence to Luxury Empire Cinemas Screen.
The above linked press release is about the Hemel Hempstead IMPACT screen (as it was then), it looks like Christie Vive line array speakers were installed, so your views on the sound quality achieved would be of interest?
Also, notice it says “The IMPACT screen uses Empire Cinema’s patented IMPACT design…”
You’re welcome. :–)
Resolution shouldn’t affect that. OTOH e.g. better contrast does yield improved perceived resolution.
The (Xenon lamp) IMAX Digital projectors used at the BFI might be previous generation; whilst IMAX just brand all the projectors as “IMAX Digital” the internals do change. Maybe the lamps are due for replacement soon? The use of polarisation for 3D doesn’t help either.
I did visit the booth at the BFI IMAX a few years ago, I vaguely remember asking the projectionist about them but I’ve forgotten his response! Incidentally, the booth was absolutely spotless.
I see the 800kg figure on the BFI site; where did you get the figure for the Cineworld (Empire) Leicester Square?
The BFI screen was coated in situ with silver paint for 3D, the Leicester Square one wasn’t as the laser projection system doesn’t use polarisation for 3D.
Thank you for the info, I wasn’t aware that the old Charter Place shopping centre next to intu Watford was finally being redone, it’s been floating around as a proposal for years.
Planning Application.
Looking at the “APPROVED PROPOSED CINEMA LEVEL 2 PLAN” document, Auditorium 1 is the largest; 433 seats. Screen width I’d estimate to be as much as 80ft.!
Wonder what will happen to the Vue Watford? The area might at risk of becoming overscreened albeit Auditoria 4-9 in the above linked plans aren’t very big.
The only time I can recall seeing a presentation with an SDDS soundtrack used was “Bad Boys” in Screen 7 at the Warner West End.
I don’t think the film used all 8 tracks and I don’t think Screen 7 had 5 screen speakers for the left centre/right centre channels either.
It worked fine and I didn’t notice any dropouts, which was a major concern as the SDDS data was stored at the edges of the film strip. I did like the SDDS trailer.
As for how it compared to the other formats, it would be impossible to meaningfully compare subtle differences between lossy formats under those conditions.
The SDDS decoder was an interesting device for that time, e.g. it had onboard DSP processing including digital EQ.
SDDS used Sony’s ATRAC lossy compression system. I still have an old Sony MiniDisc (ATRAC was also used for MD) recorder lying around somewhere (probably at the back of the loft!) which I thought worked well at the time (late 1990s) but since then I’ve trained myself to be very sensitive to the artifacts of lossy audio compression systems. ATRAC itself went through various versions and the encoder quality is critical with any lossy compression system.
In the early days of online music stores and applications (e.g. iTunes), I installed Sony’s Connect store/software on my PC, which as well as selling ATRAC encoded content could extract (aka “rip”) audio off CDs and then reduce the file size using its ATRAC encoder.
No idea how this compared to professional encoders used for theatrical releases or the ones found in consumer MiniDisc recorders but it certainly couldn’t compete with a good AAC or even MP3 encode. Audible artifacts and dulling of high frequencies.
Indeed THX are still around in the home theatre world, although I haven’t really followed what they’re doing these days. The brand did get tarnished once it started being slapped on Sound Blaster soundcards and low quality multimedia speakers!
Alas my own home cinema (front projection with custom speakers—Electro-Voice subwoofers and satellites fitted with coaxial bass/mids using HF compression drivers) and the room it was in were destroyed by a leak a few years ago. You really don’t want to hear the rest of the sorry story, but it will be put back sooner or later. :–(
LARGE_screen_format: You’re very welcome, glad you liked my posts! :–)
I don’t think there are any THX-certified locations in the UK and there aren’t many left worldwide.
When THX was formed in 1983, there was a great need to improve sound in cinemas and get it closer to the then current state of the art.
Many venues had problems with excessive reverberation times (older ones in particular) and poor isolation (new build multiplexes or subdivided older venues (low cost “drop-wall” conversions and the like.)) Dolby Stereo had brought 4 channel matrixed sound to 35mm optical tracks but venues were just sticking in the Dolby Stereo decoder and adding surrounds with the old Altec Voice of the Theatre screen speakers still there, in whatever condition they were in by then.
THX venues would also feature baffle walls with flush mounted screen speakers (though there was nothing stopping non-THX venues from building them!) and the THX crossover/monitor unit.
Not only is the crossover/monitor unit a long discontinued product but it’s useless for modern 3-way screen speakers, let alone the emerging line array systems, and digital active crossovers that can be configured to do the same thing are available, so it’s not needed.
THX certification per se isn’t really an absolute guarantee of excellence.
Although the flagship venues clearly had attention to detail paid to them, that didn’t mean all THX venues sounded that good.
For example, there were 2 THX certified screens at the Hoyts multiplex in the Bluewater Shopping Centre (now a Showcase); they didn’t really sounded any different to any other run of the mill multiplex of the time (late 1990s), i.e. medicore.
Whereas e.g. the mid-2000s THX certified system in the old Empire 1 was amazing.
The IMAX Digital system has “21st Century” quality control included as the system is automatically checked and re-calibrated every day and the picture is constantly monitored by cameras in the auditorium, plus all installations are monitored by their Network Operations Centre in Mississauga.
Whereas THX only requires annual reinspections.
THX certification of cinemas didn’t really gain much traction in the UK; I heard that this was partially due to political reasons. On a worldwide basis I think operators started to drop it after the 35mm digital sound formats became commonplace—which makes sense since they could e.g. advertise “digital sound,” put the Dolby Digital logo above the entrance, and play the trailer. With DTS and SDDS out there as well, the average patron was probably confused by the “acronym soup”!
THX Ltd. has gone through changes of ownership and various directions over the years; they are now launching a new system to compete with Dolby Cinema and IMAX (which on the face of it doesn’t sound like a sensible move to me but there we are.)
Re: The original screens 5/7 THX installations.
From my recollection from the “JBL at the Movies” publication referenced in my previous comment, the specification was:
-Usual THX-certified JBL speakers (4675C main screen speakers, 4645B subwoofers, 8330 surrounds [about 16 IIRC] -THX crossover/monitor. -QSC amplification. -Dolby Digital/DTS in both screens, SDDS also in Screen 7.
They did sound very good indeed (although I might temper this by saying relative to expectations at that time!) and there was some mention in that publication of specific work that had gone into the acoustics for the venue. In any case, I always thought the acoustics were very good and it doesn’t suffer from the parallel walls and very early sidewall reflections from the left/right screen speakers which happen with the typical “box” auditorium with wall-to-wall screens.
The only problem was that it didn’t really have enough LFE capability for the digital formats.
As THX certified auditoria, they also had to have good acoustic isolation—you could only hear leakage of peak LFE levels if the auditorium you were in was quiet.
The rest of the auditoria all had JBL speakers as well and they also all sounded good. Of course, many other venues were using similar equipment then, so it does demonstrate that getting all the details right (incuding system alignment/calibration and real projectionists to run film-based shows) makes all the difference.
LARGE_screen_format:
To clarify: The VUE West End in its current form opened as the Warner West End (the plaque from the 1993 re-opening post-rebuilt is still embedded in the pavement outside)—the “Village” name was appended later when there was a joint venture between WB and Village Roadshow Pictures.
I’ve seen a number of comments on the Web suggesting that the “Village” suffix was something to do with a “village” of multiplex screens, which wasn’t the case!
To add to MovieGeek2013’s comment, as a UCI operated location the Empire LSQ wouled usually get all the major UIP-distributed releases.
Some years ago, I went for a meal at a Garfunkel’s Restaurant just off the square, and a couple of individuals sat at the adjacent table were having an impromptu meeting about which of the West End cinemas to place a number of upcoming movies.
About every 5 minutes one of the waiters would ask them if they were ready to order yet (which they never did.)
I wish I could say that I gained some profound insight into the machinations of film distribution, but the level of discussion was more like “the kids will go for that one!”
As I understood it, at least for the opening weeks, there was some sort of agreement that only one cinema operator in Leicester Square could book each title.
Empire Cinemas had a hard time getting bookings for LSQ, even after the IMAX opened.
This no longer seems to be the case.
VUE West End Screens 5/7 were, IIRC, said to have 40ft. wide screens in the “JBL at the Movies” promotional supplement that was published on behalf of Harman (JBL’s parent company) by Dennis Publishing and came with an edition of “Home Cinema Choice” and also put out as promotional blurb by Harman. I have half a dozen copies of it somewhere!
Screen 5 has a screen width of 13.1m/43ft. (by the chord) according to UNICK Architects' current licensing plans. (Dimension is actually written on the plans = 13145mm.)
Presumably the same width for Screen 7.
Screen 6 I’d estimate from the licensing plans to be a bit under 30ft.
Screen 8 and Screen 9 also have screen dimensions marked on the plans, Screen 8 is unreadable (it’s a bit smaller than Screen 9) and Screen 9 is 7.7m (actually 7744mm!) or about 25ft. wide.
I wouldn’t bother with the four basement screens (1-4) as they don’t have adequate isolation and screens are off-centre, but FYI for Screens 1/¾ I estimate the screens widths to be about 25-26ft., Screen 2 about 22ft. wide.
Screen 5 auditorium — about 21m from screen to last row, or about 1.6x screen width. The auditorium is about 23m wide max., therefore its total area is about 5000sq.ft. (Again ditto or approximately ditto for its sibling situated above, Screen 7.)
Indeed seat count doesn’t have a such a strong relationship to the auditorium size these days. It’s also about the auditorium geometry and relative screen size—I’ll discuss this further in another post.
If they do, they would probably be correct. ;–)
Cinema operators have, at least as long as I can remember, almost always been dreadful about disseminating details of the audio/projection system spec. The fact that the information they do provide is often limited, sometimes erroneous or odd suggests technical illiteracy rather than a conspiracy!
If you can find the plans for the cinema (often available to download as part of their entertainment/alcohol license) then you can estimate the screen width for yourself (also relative to the auditorium size and layout.)
You will sometimes find more detailed specifications in Cinema Technology Today (formerly Cinema Technology Magazine) if a new or upgraded venue is the subject of one of their articles, albeit it’s undergone a change of ownership and revamp and only a limited selection of archived back issues are currently available on their website.
Zappomatic: The side surrounds are visible in your photos, easier to see with some basic adjustments, e.g. increasing the brightness or gamma curve.
A double mains socket can also be seen on the right sidewall, perfect for charging your phone during the feature! (Just kidding.)
Hmm, do such duct tape repairs really cut it health and safety wise?!
This is a very complicated project involving demolishing the whole block and excavating a massive 34m deep hole in the ground, right next to a busy area with the need to have heavy constraints on access, noise, dust and vibration.
A myriad of potential unknowns could block progress along critical paths; for example, as I mentioned in a previous post, the scheme was altered with the NW corner of the new building “chopped off” to allow for a UK Power Networks tunnel that had been “discovered” during enabling works!
I hadn’t actually realised that the replacement cinema opening date had been pushed back but progress did seem to be slow indeed. At this stage there should be less in the way of unknowns to scupper things…
Zappomatic: Extreme minutiae is exactly what I like. ;–)
Thanks for the update on the ongoing refurb.
LARGE_screen_format: Regarding the “washed out” colour you might wish to take a look at, for whatever it’s worth, a video commentary on the colour grading style used with Marvel Studios' films.
IMAX adjust the colour for their IMAX versions of films, and this would be different for the version supplied to conventional (Xenon lamp) IMAX Digital and IMAX with Laser venues.
I’ve certainly seen excellent images from Xenon lamp light source IMAX Digital projectors.
Regarding the sound systems:
For 15/70 at the BFI: The 6 track “Sonics” system for 15/70 with the PCM data losslessly stored on CD-ROMs and sync’d to the film on playback. (N.B. IMAX never use a separate LFE channel, 6 = left, centre, right, left surround, right surround and then the additional upper centre or so-called “Voice of God” channel—which I don’t think is used much, if at all, these days, certainly not for feature films?)
For digital at either location: 6 track lossless digital. Additionally, as of the laser projector installation, the Cineworld (Empire) Leicester Square supports IMAX’s 12 track system with two of the extra channels assigned as left/right side and the other four for overheads.
AFAIK the BFI uses the older generation IMAX/Sonics speakers; see:
London BFI IMAX Screen Replacement video (Direct link to the time in the video when the old screen had been removed.)
There is a mess of additional speakers which I assume are, along with the rear array that’s installed, for non-IMAX presentations. The left/centre/right IMAX speakers can be seen with the upper centre “Voice of God”—the left speaker has someone standing next to it wearing a “hi-vis” jacket. If that’s not clear: Photo of a rather battered example of one.
Not sure why there are two sets of these non-IMAX speakers; maybe they old set were left behind the screen after an upgrade in 2010?
Also not entirely clear on the subwoofers for IMAX presentations, e.g. there’s just not enough resolution in that video to identify the 4 units (2 drivers in each) at the bottom of the screen.
Installation of the Empire Leicester Square IMAX Video (Direct link to start of relevant section.)
Incidentally, notice that the Leicester Square IMAX does include a “Voice of God” speaker, whilst many new IMAX Digital installations don’t.
The main screen speakers are the newer IMAX “Kanga” speakers for larger IMAX auditoria: high resolution photo.
Subwoofers with 12" high excursion drivers are at the bottom of that photo; a number of these can be seen being installed in the video.
Both the BFI and the Cineworld (Empire) Leicester Square IMAX have 19" rackmount units for IMAX’s NEXOS Audyssey-based EQ system installed, but I’m not sure if this is used for digital presentations only at the BFI.
The Cineworld (Empire) Leicester Square has 6 additional smaller speakers on the sidewalls and ceilings, again installed concurrently with the IMAX with Laser projection system, for the IMAX 12 channel system.
Acoustics: The Cineworld (Empire) Leicester Square doesn’t have absolute isolation from the Superscreen (there’s a limit to what multiple layers of plasterboard and mineral wool can do—the screens are back to back!)—but then again you will rarely hear any leakage from the Superscreen (happens with peak LFE use) in the average IMAX “blockbuster” title as it’ll be masked by the film’s own audio.
The Cineworld (Empire) Leicester Square does suffer acoustically from not being a purpose-built IMAX venue.
Compared to the old Empire 1, in which the slap echo issue could be a real problem for dialogue intelligibility, it’s much improved but it’s still a wide auditorium.
On the other hand the width might improve matters as instead of having the sidewalls square to the screen edges, causing earlier lateral reflections, there’s more space.
As for 15/70 projection, it seems like a retrograde step for a film shot digitally, with very heavy CGI use, and edited and finished digitally also.
Christopher Nolan apparently used an all-optical process with no digital finishing for “Dunkirk,” although in my view it looks inconsistent, grainy and less than sharp compared to current generation high-end digital material.
Speaking of “Dunkirk,” the full 1.43:1 frame wasn’t shown at the Cineworld (Empire) Leicester Square, but most IMAX content is now 1.9:1 maximum height anyway.
As for the screen widths, the auditoriums are around the same depth, the BFI being about a row deeper IIRC; I’ve seen 26.5m as well as 26m quoted as the screen width at the BFI whilst Empire Cinemas stated the Leicester Square IMAX screen width as 26.5m. Whether or not it’s 0.5m wider I think is a fairly moot point though as the screens are both very wide and both auditoria place the audience in the “correct” location relative to the screen per IMAX specifications.
I think that’s enough of a “brain dump” for one day, over and out for now… :–)
joeswin: Fascinating indeed—sounds like a great project! :–)
Visiting the Westminster Archives has long been on my “to do” list and I hadn’t realised those plans were held there, did you find it at all difficult to gain access?
Please upload a copy of your project somewhere if you are able to, I’d (and I trust anyone else reading this would) very much appreciate it?
LARGE_screen_format: The cinema was closed in January of this year to strip out the foyer and to get it to a state which allowed for ongoing building works whilst keeping the cinema open to the public.
The former Screen 2 had been stripped by the end of August 2017 according to the member of staff I spoke to at that time.
With the public areas of the main foyer and vestibule from Leicester Square and the 4DX complete Cineworld publicised the changes they’d made in April 2018—e.g.YouTube Video of Gala Opening.
AFAIK the former Screens 4/5 (now 1 and 2) are still closed at the moment, see Zappomatic’s photo into the former Screen 4 in a stripped state.
No idea what further phases Cineworld have planned but the information I had last month from talking to a member of staff was that Cineworld weren’t planning on doing anything to the IMAX and Superscreen at the moment as the conversion of the old Screen 1 was completed at a time that is still fairly recent.
joeswin: The signage illumination and the LED colour dot matrix display certainly need attention as they’re not working properly anymore!
(Albeit IMO the current canopy always looked dreadful…!)
No planning application for a replacement (or alterations to the existing) are listed at the moment.
The 2006 planning application for the existing canopy and signage.
As can be seen from this application, it was made on behalf of London Clubs Management. The cinema is sublet from the Casino who hold the head lease (building owned by London and Regional Properties)—no idea what the arrangements are but it might reasonably be surmised that Cineworld can’t redo the canopy/signage unilaterally.
There is a building control application dated March 2017 for a full refubishment of the Casino. That scheme doesn’t seem to have been taken forward but it might be the case that an overhaul is in the pipeline.
From my previous post linking to a conceptual proposal for complete redevelopment of the Empire site by London and Regional Properties, the casino is branded as “Caesars Palace” in the drawings of the facade and as Caesars Entertainment now operate the casino it might be the case that any replacement would take that name along with Cineworld branding.
IOW, I’d guess a refresh is due but not just yet…
The Wurlitzer Organ of the Empire Leicester Square Installed at the Home of Mr. Len Rawle.
A few facts according to this document:
Zappomatic: Hmm, I’d assumed they do sequential numbering of Screens 1-3 from the front-to-back (or left-to-right) of the foyer…
The former Screen 4 (96 seats) is the one that uses the space that was previously toilets; you took a photo of it from the foyer in a stripped out state a couple of months ago.
I, too, found that performances were scheduled for Screen 2 a couple of days ago. I can’t remember what seating layout was shown, though. (i.e. Whether it was the former Screen 4 or 5!)
Incidentally, there is an article on these screens in the September 2008 issue of Cinema Technology Magazine—complete with a picture taken from the roof above the former Screen 5 showing Swiss Centre in a mostly demolished state!
Now I’m getting confused. Isn’t Screen 2 the former Screen 4? Also had a good look through listings on the Cineworld site for Friday this week, couldn’t find any performances in Screens 1 or 2…
Addendum to previous post: This scheme seems to be somewhat “pie in the sky” in terms of its feasibility given the potential constraints on adding significant basement depth with numerous adjacent properties and obscuring windows of the Premier Inn and the new hotel (Hotel Indigo) in 1-4 Leicester Sq. (The cross-sectional view doesn’t make sense at all in terms of cinema auditoria size and positioning, but of course that could soon be changed were this project taken forward.)
Good news (from April 2017!):
“Curzon Mayfair cinema saved as developers back off” – City A.M.
Alas the “wrecking ball” may eventually be on the horizon as the freehold owner is applying for a Certificate of Immunity from listing:
SAVE Britain’s Heritage calls for urgent listing of last surviving grand 1920s West End cinema.
N.B. The façade is within the Haymarket Conservation Area.
I hope theatreofvarieties' suggestion that London & Regional Properties (who own 5-6 Leicester Square) weren’t planning on demolishing the building any time soon was correct (also, decades left on the cinema lease…)
But here’s a nightmare conceptual proposal commissioned by L&R to create an utter carbuncle with below ground cinemas:
The Empire Leicester Square Redevelopment Project.
Cineworld will be doing a large scale rollout of laser projection:
Cineworld Group Signs Deal for 600 Movie Screens Worldwide with Barco Laser Projectors.
IMAX and Cineworld Group Sign Agreement to Install New IMAX with Laser Experience in 55 Cineworld and Regal IMAX Locations.
Hopefully, this means that the LSQ Superscreen will benefit from new Barco laser projectors.
Surrounds look like they’re still JBL 8330s from the original 1993 installation.
8build’s website now has a page on the OLS works.
It says that their role is the enabling works before fit-out, including “demolition, asbestos removal, form new openings and structural alterations.”
It goes on to say that only “extent of the removal works both and in turn the demolition and structural alterations” were not known at project commencement and only after “existing services, asbestos and structure [are] uncovered” will it be possible to ascertain the scope required.
Given that their stated project duration is 12 weeks, and that from what I currently think I can see externally the foyer works appear to be far from complete, it might be the case that the works have turned out to be more extensive than originally estimated, with consequential effects on the reopening date.